1 00:00:00,070 --> 00:00:31,700 [Music] 2 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:35,700 so as we put together the episode for 3 00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:37,930 last week with : Bennett who wrote the 4 00:00:42,180 --> 00:00:40,089 book book on Andrew group held UFOs over 5 00:00:44,490 --> 00:00:42,190 the White House flying saucers over the 6 00:00:47,369 --> 00:00:44,500 White House whatever I must say I was 7 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:47,379 gobsmacked how confusing his 8 00:00:53,689 --> 00:00:51,820 conversation was yeah yeah it was kind 9 00:00:56,580 --> 00:00:53,699 of tough to wade through at times but 10 00:00:58,130 --> 00:00:56,590 you just got to admire the man for the 11 00:01:02,009 --> 00:00:58,140 amount of work he's done over the years 12 00:01:04,979 --> 00:01:02,019 he's very entertaining he's he's quite 13 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:04,989 the character and I really did enjoy the 14 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:08,770 book I felt his insight personal opinion 15 00:01:14,430 --> 00:01:12,550 about who else process I think was 16 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:14,440 spot-on I think he really brought up 17 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:16,090 some very interesting points I think his 18 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:19,690 analysis of who felts process and and 19 00:01:25,290 --> 00:01:22,810 the people around him was spot-on and I 20 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:25,300 think it's a real you know I think of a 21 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:27,810 good addition to you know the whole 22 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:30,700 project Bluebook historical sort of 23 00:01:34,740 --> 00:01:32,860 revisionism I think it's a very very 24 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:34,750 good addition to it he kept calling it 25 00:01:38,070 --> 00:01:36,310 Operation Blue Book of course but I 26 00:01:39,719 --> 00:01:38,080 won't worry about that the thing is of 27 00:01:42,210 --> 00:01:39,729 course I don't know if I had as many 28 00:01:45,660 --> 00:01:42,220 insights into Roop helped a man as 29 00:01:47,910 --> 00:01:45,670 opposed to repelled as the executive in 30 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:47,920 charge of Project Blue Book that would 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:50,050 have been nice but then he never made an 32 00:01:54,449 --> 00:01:52,090 effort I guess to contact any members of 33 00:01:57,029 --> 00:01:54,459 his family were people who knew him that 34 00:01:59,249 --> 00:01:57,039 was a little puzzling and surprising 35 00:02:02,130 --> 00:01:59,259 actually now that you mention it it's 36 00:02:04,109 --> 00:02:02,140 kind of armchair research and infinitum 37 00:02:05,669 --> 00:02:04,119 I mean you could have written emails you 38 00:02:07,830 --> 00:02:05,679 could have tried to do a little Google 39 00:02:10,410 --> 00:02:07,840 research and said okay let's see now 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:10,420 what was the name of his wife can I find 41 00:02:15,540 --> 00:02:12,610 that person is she still alive did he 42 00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:15,550 have children you know what I think that 43 00:02:19,759 --> 00:02:16,870 would have fleshed out the narrative 44 00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:19,769 quite a bit I think he's really into 45 00:02:25,530 --> 00:02:23,080 writing and he's a very good writer and 46 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:25,540 some of his turns are phrase were quite 47 00:02:30,589 --> 00:02:27,970 memorable don't ask me to recite one 48 00:02:33,289 --> 00:02:30,599 because I can't remember 49 00:02:35,509 --> 00:02:33,299 quite flammable except that you couldn't 50 00:02:37,699 --> 00:02:35,519 remember one well he's just very 51 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:37,709 entertaining as a writer and you know 52 00:02:41,929 --> 00:02:40,530 being an aspiring writer myself I can 53 00:02:43,459 --> 00:02:41,939 really appreciate someone that's got 54 00:02:45,619 --> 00:02:43,469 some real writing talent which he does 55 00:02:48,740 --> 00:02:45,629 obviously and one thing that we didn't 56 00:02:51,589 --> 00:02:48,750 talk about was the Ray Santilli fiasco 57 00:02:55,009 --> 00:02:51,599 that I think he was involved in helping 58 00:02:56,149 --> 00:02:55,019 unmask with Phil mantel but I guess 59 00:02:59,289 --> 00:02:56,159 we'll have to have him back for another 60 00:03:01,929 --> 00:02:59,299 show and see if we can get some sort of 61 00:03:04,970 --> 00:03:01,939 audio filter they'll clean up the 62 00:03:06,559 --> 00:03:04,980 gobsmacking right well he was coughing a 63 00:03:08,869 --> 00:03:06,569 lot through the episode we kind of 64 00:03:11,629 --> 00:03:08,879 clipped that out basically he'd been ill 65 00:03:13,459 --> 00:03:11,639 and I gather he was on the mend and 66 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:13,469 maybe that's why we weren't going to 67 00:03:21,199 --> 00:03:17,510 make him look three two one go ahead 68 00:03:21,949 --> 00:03:21,209 three two one we weren't going to make 69 00:03:25,129 --> 00:03:21,959 him look 70 00:03:27,679 --> 00:03:25,139 three two one foolish on the show so a 71 00:03:30,259 --> 00:03:27,689 lot of that was excised from the final 72 00:03:32,390 --> 00:03:30,269 version three two one and I'm glad you 73 00:03:36,589 --> 00:03:32,400 were the one that had to do it thank you 74 00:03:40,009 --> 00:03:36,599 I resemble that remark thing though that 75 00:03:41,839 --> 00:03:40,019 we have to look at how we got here if 76 00:03:43,969 --> 00:03:41,849 we're looking at the UFO field what we 77 00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:43,979 know about the subject if we don't 78 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:46,169 understand where we came from we keep 79 00:03:50,749 --> 00:03:48,329 repeating the same mistakes and that's 80 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:50,759 such an unfortunate thing you know so 81 00:03:54,319 --> 00:03:52,530 some of our listeners may think yeah who 82 00:03:57,409 --> 00:03:54,329 wants to know about UFO books in the 83 00:03:57,949 --> 00:03:57,419 1950s that's so old it's before I was 84 00:04:00,469 --> 00:03:57,959 born 85 00:04:02,929 --> 00:04:00,479 well maybe it was but if you don't know 86 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:02,939 what they did why they did it you're 87 00:04:07,189 --> 00:04:04,530 just going to repeat their mistakes all 88 00:04:09,170 --> 00:04:07,199 over the ashen old territory one thing 89 00:04:13,059 --> 00:04:09,180 I've noticed gene is we've in the past 90 00:04:15,679 --> 00:04:13,069 two weeks we have added so many new form 91 00:04:17,749 --> 00:04:15,689 posters and members of the pair caste 92 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:17,759 community and I don't know if you've 93 00:04:22,909 --> 00:04:20,130 noticed but they're all in their 20s and 94 00:04:24,649 --> 00:04:22,919 this is a very good sign gene I know 95 00:04:26,420 --> 00:04:24,659 we're getting on more radio stations I 96 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:26,430 don't have the full list I know very 97 00:04:30,589 --> 00:04:28,770 recently we joined a station in Corpus 98 00:04:32,990 --> 00:04:30,599 Christi Texas which is a pretty large 99 00:04:36,469 --> 00:04:33,000 City pretty large metropolitan area and 100 00:04:38,629 --> 00:04:36,479 is dancer land sure I'm happy that we 101 00:04:40,730 --> 00:04:38,639 joined that station and that we are in 102 00:04:42,589 --> 00:04:40,740 Corpus Christi if you want the power 103 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:42,599 cast to be on your favorite radio 104 00:04:47,150 --> 00:04:44,310 station a talk station 105 00:04:50,510 --> 00:04:47,160 in your city right us news at the para 106 00:04:52,879 --> 00:04:50,520 cast comm news the para cast comm I will 107 00:04:55,340 --> 00:04:52,889 take that information I'll send it on to 108 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:55,350 our network people at GC and network and 109 00:04:59,000 --> 00:04:57,090 have them work through it and see if 110 00:05:00,290 --> 00:04:59,010 they can't get them on the roster so 111 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:00,300 we're trying we're trying to get out as 112 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:02,550 many stations as possible we cannot do 113 00:05:07,129 --> 00:05:05,130 it without your help we need your help 114 00:05:09,110 --> 00:05:07,139 and invites speaking of the forums it 115 00:05:13,220 --> 00:05:09,120 seems to me the discussion that has 116 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:13,230 never ended and won't end is still about 117 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:15,810 crystal skulls there's no last word on 118 00:05:20,710 --> 00:05:17,730 that it just goes on well we're gonna 119 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:20,720 have to get the who I consider it to be 120 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:23,310 arguably the top expert right now in the 121 00:05:31,250 --> 00:05:28,050 field in terms of non scientist experts 122 00:05:34,310 --> 00:05:31,260 Steven mailer who was Nick no Surenos 123 00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:34,320 protege Nick of course was the longtime 124 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:37,350 well considered crystal skull researcher 125 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:38,910 who pretty much wrote the book on the 126 00:05:45,350 --> 00:05:41,970 subject for better for worse but you're 127 00:05:47,390 --> 00:05:45,360 right gene it's I'm just amazed it's one 128 00:05:48,980 --> 00:05:47,400 of the largest threads that I've seen on 129 00:05:52,010 --> 00:05:48,990 the para cast since I become involved 130 00:05:53,420 --> 00:05:52,020 and boy it's and unless we kind of put 131 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:53,430 the kibosh on it it's gonna continue 132 00:05:58,990 --> 00:05:55,530 it's it's like Frankenstein it's got a 133 00:06:01,850 --> 00:05:59,000 life of its own well as long as it stays 134 00:06:04,250 --> 00:06:01,860 within the range of acceptability I mean 135 00:06:06,230 --> 00:06:04,260 it's kind of drifted out there a little 136 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:06,240 bit but as long as it remains acceptable 137 00:06:09,860 --> 00:06:07,110 we'll keep it going 138 00:06:11,990 --> 00:06:09,870 I mean up till now the longest thread we 139 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:12,000 had was early in the para cast forums 140 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:14,010 history where we talked about billy 141 00:06:19,130 --> 00:06:16,530 meier and that went on for thousands of 142 00:06:21,409 --> 00:06:19,140 posts until we said this is enough I 143 00:06:23,690 --> 00:06:21,419 can't handle this anymore let's just 144 00:06:27,290 --> 00:06:23,700 stop it it erupts every so often 145 00:06:29,719 --> 00:06:27,300 another one was abductions no okay lots 146 00:06:32,570 --> 00:06:29,729 of discussion on abductions and you 147 00:06:35,180 --> 00:06:32,580 wonder when all this happens why does a 148 00:06:37,219 --> 00:06:35,190 discussion thread which is a topic of 149 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:37,229 discussion in a forum why it suddenly 150 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:38,970 gets out of hand a couple of simple 151 00:06:43,670 --> 00:06:41,220 messages and somebody drops in says oh 152 00:06:45,469 --> 00:06:43,680 no it can't be that and they give their 153 00:06:47,330 --> 00:06:45,479 opinion and suddenly 10,000 messages 154 00:06:49,940 --> 00:06:47,340 later they're still talking about it 155 00:06:51,950 --> 00:06:49,950 well we I must say Jean it's amazing 156 00:06:52,820 --> 00:06:51,960 several of the posters on the on the 157 00:06:55,670 --> 00:06:52,830 forum have 158 00:06:58,790 --> 00:06:55,680 spent days calling the Smithsonian 159 00:07:01,520 --> 00:06:58,800 making phone calls all over digging deep 160 00:07:04,610 --> 00:07:01,530 into the research material about the 161 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:04,620 Crystal Skull subject I mean do these 162 00:07:09,410 --> 00:07:07,170 people have a day job or do they have a 163 00:07:10,670 --> 00:07:09,420 life but they're independently wealthy I 164 00:07:12,470 --> 00:07:10,680 think that's it right there they have 165 00:07:14,900 --> 00:07:12,480 all the money in the world they don't 166 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:14,910 need any more money so it's no boy yet 167 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:18,690 they send it to us well you know we 168 00:07:25,010 --> 00:07:21,510 mentioned I guess half seriously that if 169 00:07:27,470 --> 00:07:25,020 any of you has the ability to do 170 00:07:28,970 --> 00:07:27,480 research conduct research about these 171 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:28,980 subjects and you're willing to 172 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:31,530 contribute the facilities of your 173 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:34,770 laboratory and we can get samples to 174 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:36,810 investigate we could send you evidence 175 00:07:41,330 --> 00:07:39,210 of cases photographs etc we'd welcome 176 00:07:44,990 --> 00:07:41,340 that we did get a letter from somebody a 177 00:07:46,790 --> 00:07:45,000 scientist who says he has the facility 178 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:46,800 so we're going to follow up on that we 179 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:50,010 are indeed sure but you know if we want 180 00:07:53,390 --> 00:07:51,570 to set up a fund for that that would be 181 00:07:55,780 --> 00:07:53,400 nice I don't know how to go about that 182 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:55,790 yet okay I'm gonna go figure it out 183 00:07:59,630 --> 00:07:57,810 we'll figure it out once the checks 184 00:08:01,700 --> 00:07:59,640 start coming in we'll figure it out but 185 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:01,710 we'll have to do what you know the fair 186 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:03,450 and square and make sure that the money 187 00:08:07,850 --> 00:08:06,330 is properly allocated no nonsense like 188 00:08:09,530 --> 00:08:07,860 the nonsense we've heard about the 189 00:08:11,990 --> 00:08:09,540 controversy over it 190 00:08:13,970 --> 00:08:12,000 MUFON I don't know who it was a good or 191 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:13,980 bad party there but there were so many 192 00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:16,170 complaints there we don't want to get 193 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:18,390 into that we're not a UFO investigative 194 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:20,610 organization we're just a radio show 195 00:08:24,620 --> 00:08:22,650 it's just a talk show but if we have 196 00:08:26,270 --> 00:08:24,630 some people who are willing to 197 00:08:28,340 --> 00:08:26,280 contribute towards investigation 198 00:08:31,310 --> 00:08:28,350 research people have the facilities 199 00:08:34,460 --> 00:08:31,320 right US news at the para cast comm news 200 00:08:36,650 --> 00:08:34,470 at the para cast I come now during the 201 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:36,660 course of the discussion which I could 202 00:08:39,590 --> 00:08:38,370 figure out this part of the discussion a 203 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:39,600 few times 204 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:42,330 : Bennet mentioned author Nick Redfern 205 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:44,940 who's one of our guest co-host about the 206 00:08:49,460 --> 00:08:46,590 fact that he has contributed material 207 00:08:52,070 --> 00:08:49,470 towards Nick's new men in black book the 208 00:08:53,780 --> 00:08:52,080 book is called the real men in black 209 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:53,790 we're not talking about the fake men in 210 00:08:58,250 --> 00:08:55,310 black here the real men in black 211 00:09:00,980 --> 00:08:58,260 evidence famous cases and true stories 212 00:09:03,710 --> 00:09:00,990 of these mysterious men and their 213 00:09:05,980 --> 00:09:03,720 connection to the UFO phenomena okay now 214 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:05,990 he's referring to phenomena as a plural 215 00:09:09,460 --> 00:09:08,690 singular no it's not phenomenon it's a 216 00:09:11,590 --> 00:09:09,470 phenomena 217 00:09:14,260 --> 00:09:11,600 we'll have to debate that with Nick the 218 00:09:17,139 --> 00:09:14,270 proper British gentleman which one is it 219 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:17,149 now understand the same time as this is 220 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:20,000 going on they are making a new men in 221 00:09:24,670 --> 00:09:22,130 black movie men in black 3 with the 222 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:24,680 original stars Will Smith and of course 223 00:09:31,329 --> 00:09:28,250 Tommy Lee Jones and I guess Rip Torn who 224 00:09:34,150 --> 00:09:31,339 if he can just keep his gun in his 225 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:34,160 holster and not take it out and he's 226 00:09:41,740 --> 00:09:39,170 drunk and he's walking into a bank and 227 00:09:44,410 --> 00:09:41,750 Josh Brolin is playing a young Tommy Lee 228 00:09:46,180 --> 00:09:44,420 Jones from the 60s Josh Brolin well you 229 00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:46,190 can play George Bush I guess he can play 230 00:09:52,900 --> 00:09:49,180 a young Tommy Lee Jones yeah fascinating 231 00:09:55,090 --> 00:09:52,910 coming up next we have the real Men in 232 00:09:57,220 --> 00:09:55,100 Black is the book Nick Redfern is the 233 00:10:01,860 --> 00:09:57,230 guest on gene Steinberg the co-host is 234 00:10:07,930 --> 00:10:04,800 [Music] 235 00:10:10,090 --> 00:10:07,940 okay so who is watching your home when 236 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:10,100 you're not there help protect your home 237 00:10:15,250 --> 00:10:13,250 with a security system monitored by ADT 238 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:15,260 it's the leader in home security 239 00:10:19,870 --> 00:10:17,690 remember ADT is a number one monitoring 240 00:10:22,480 --> 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send it to news at the para cast com 339 00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,580 that's news at the para cast calm and 340 00:14:31,310 --> 00:14:28,320 don't forget to visit our famous pair 341 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:31,320 cast community forums at forum dot the 342 00:14:39,820 --> 00:14:34,170 para cast dot-com get in on all the 343 00:14:42,829 --> 00:14:39,830 action at forum dot the para cast comm 344 00:14:44,990 --> 00:14:42,839 the co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene 345 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:45,000 Steinberg you're in the para cast our 346 00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:47,550 guest this week is also one of our guest 347 00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:50,910 co-host seats Nick Redfern in the book 348 00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:53,790 is all about the real men in black and 349 00:14:59,210 --> 00:14:55,560 before we talk about the real men in 350 00:15:03,019 --> 00:14:59,220 black let me introduce you to the real 351 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:03,029 Ari ehlmann in black from the movies now 352 00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:05,010 this is what we hear about men and black 353 00:15:10,579 --> 00:15:08,700 of course the most popular concept is in 354 00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:10,589 the movie not in reality and we'll have 355 00:15:15,950 --> 00:15:13,350 to separate that so from the movie the 356 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:15,960 original men in black movie Will Smith 357 00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:19,610 was co-author and rap singer of this 358 00:15:24,890 --> 00:15:22,470 chorus here come the men in black the 359 00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:24,900 galaxy defenders here come the men in 360 00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:27,630 black they won't let you remember now 361 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:30,480 Nick Redfern how do we separate the men 362 00:15:36,260 --> 00:15:32,910 in black from the graphic comic book the 363 00:15:38,030 --> 00:15:36,270 movie to the real men in black well you 364 00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,040 know I think in some respects it's 365 00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:40,320 actually a difficult job purely and 366 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:42,030 simply because you know when you have a 367 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:44,610 movie and a sort of a motif if you like 368 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:47,010 if you like it's so popular and powerful 369 00:15:51,290 --> 00:15:49,050 within Hollywood many people's 370 00:15:54,350 --> 00:15:51,300 perceptions particularly those have come 371 00:15:56,630 --> 00:15:54,360 to the UFO subjects post you know 372 00:15:59,449 --> 00:15:56,640 appearance of the film they're sort of 373 00:16:02,090 --> 00:15:59,459 views are created and sort of modified 374 00:16:03,770 --> 00:16:02,100 by the you know the nature of the movie 375 00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:03,780 this the idea that the many black 376 00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:05,700 mystery is solely one revolving around 377 00:16:09,710 --> 00:16:08,190 government agents silencing UFO 378 00:16:11,690 --> 00:16:09,720 witnesses or researchers when the 379 00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:11,700 reality is that he goes into sort of far 380 00:16:17,150 --> 00:16:14,880 stranger realms and you know all I guess 381 00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:17,160 we can really do is point out you know 382 00:16:22,010 --> 00:16:18,779 the men in black movie the comedy book 383 00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:22,020 yes there is this aspect to that in the 384 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:23,820 real life many black stories but there's 385 00:16:27,210 --> 00:16:26,310 equally far stranger aspects to it as 386 00:16:28,829 --> 00:16:27,220 well 387 00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:28,839 typically here I mean originally when we 388 00:16:32,699 --> 00:16:30,639 heard about men in black in connection 389 00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:32,709 with the Albert Kate bender incident 390 00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:35,110 back in the early 1950s we thought of 391 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:37,870 them as government agents who are just 392 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:39,970 around to frighten people into shutting 393 00:16:46,559 --> 00:16:42,610 up about what they might know about UFOs 394 00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:46,569 when did it deviate from that concept 395 00:16:51,090 --> 00:16:48,550 which isn't so difficult to understand 396 00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:51,100 well I think it's some respect you know 397 00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:52,720 it's always been there but it's been 398 00:16:57,809 --> 00:16:55,240 sort of under the radar a little bit and 399 00:16:59,610 --> 00:16:57,819 people just misperceived what the men in 400 00:17:01,259 --> 00:16:59,620 black mystery is about I mean you know 401 00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:01,269 it's good you bring up Albert bender 402 00:17:05,970 --> 00:17:03,279 because chiefly he was the one person 403 00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:05,980 more than any other arguably who sort of 404 00:17:11,850 --> 00:17:08,559 gave birth to the whole men in black 405 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:11,860 puzzle now bender was an intriguing and 406 00:17:16,890 --> 00:17:14,650 kind of weird character as well he was 407 00:17:18,689 --> 00:17:16,900 steeped in not just youth illogical 408 00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:18,699 research but also the realm of the 409 00:17:23,579 --> 00:17:21,280 occult the supernatural the paranormal 410 00:17:25,289 --> 00:17:23,589 both insects excuse me I was in fiction 411 00:17:27,929 --> 00:17:25,299 and in fact you know he was someone who 412 00:17:30,899 --> 00:17:27,939 delve into Ouija boards black magic all 413 00:17:32,730 --> 00:17:30,909 sorts of things and he actually lived in 414 00:17:35,399 --> 00:17:32,740 an offshoot of the Attic of his 415 00:17:37,740 --> 00:17:35,409 stepfathers home which was sort of 416 00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:37,750 replete with the requisite creaking 417 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:40,150 floorboards and he painted sort of 418 00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:42,190 graphic imagery of monstrous faces on 419 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:44,500 the walls of the Attic he sort of lived 420 00:17:49,919 --> 00:17:47,530 in this sort of unusual environment 421 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:49,929 during UFO research dabbling in the 422 00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:52,570 occult the story was that after he set 423 00:17:55,470 --> 00:17:53,710 up this group called the International 424 00:17:57,779 --> 00:17:55,480 Flying Saucer Bureau in the early 425 00:18:01,080 --> 00:17:57,789 fifties which actually reached almost 426 00:18:03,659 --> 00:18:01,090 like stratospheric Heights I think my 427 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:03,669 stratospheric how big well I mean his 428 00:18:07,230 --> 00:18:05,590 group you know most people spend a UFO 429 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:07,240 group up in the little town or the city 430 00:18:10,890 --> 00:18:08,530 where they live and they have monthly 431 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:10,900 meetings where 50 people all turn up 432 00:18:14,909 --> 00:18:13,210 what happened was we benders group was 433 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:14,919 it actually attracted interest from all 434 00:18:20,010 --> 00:18:16,270 around the world and there were chapters 435 00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:20,020 in Britain in Australia you name it you 436 00:18:24,899 --> 00:18:21,520 know in the developed world there were 437 00:18:27,450 --> 00:18:24,909 chapters and his newsletter literally 438 00:18:29,789 --> 00:18:27,460 you know went out to hundreds of people 439 00:18:33,450 --> 00:18:29,799 and the group became I guess like a 440 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:33,460 major force within the entire UFO field 441 00:18:38,669 --> 00:18:36,250 for a brief time and I say a brief time 442 00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:38,679 because literally within a year bender 443 00:18:43,620 --> 00:18:40,780 quickly closed the IFSP 444 00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:43,630 down and alluded to having got a visit 445 00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:45,550 from three guys in black suits who 446 00:18:49,410 --> 00:18:47,470 basically said you know if you know 447 00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:49,420 what's good for you you'll walk away 448 00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:51,760 from this subject now the reason we know 449 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:54,640 this is because been quietly told a 450 00:18:58,530 --> 00:18:56,530 couple of friends and colleagues one 451 00:19:01,170 --> 00:18:58,540 being an early UFO researcher named 452 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:01,180 all.he Roberts and also told gray Barker 453 00:19:05,250 --> 00:19:03,130 Barker and bender were friends and they 454 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:05,260 shared interesting UFOs and the occult 455 00:19:10,770 --> 00:19:08,050 and Barker as you know was this sort of 456 00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:10,780 very well sort of rounded writer he you 457 00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:13,030 know very very atmospheric writer you do 458 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:14,620 have to as I pointed out in the book be 459 00:19:20,340 --> 00:19:17,190 careful as a separate fact from fiction 460 00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:20,350 and sort of metaphor and parable etc in 461 00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:23,470 Barker's works but his books nineties 462 00:19:27,870 --> 00:19:25,660 nineteen fifty six book they knew too 463 00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:27,880 much of their flying saucers told the 464 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:31,360 story of benders IFSP and how they clamp 465 00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:33,970 down came now if you read the book a lot 466 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:35,200 of people have assumed that the book 467 00:19:38,550 --> 00:19:37,210 says that bender was shut up by the 468 00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:38,560 government it actually doesn't it 469 00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:40,480 implies that but he doesn't specifically 470 00:19:45,210 --> 00:19:42,880 come out right and say so and one of the 471 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:45,220 reasons why because Barker fall well 472 00:19:51,180 --> 00:19:48,370 knew the the story that bender was 473 00:19:53,850 --> 00:19:51,190 hiding actually didn't really support 474 00:19:57,330 --> 00:19:53,860 that notion what happened was that a few 475 00:19:59,100 --> 00:19:57,340 years later in 1962 Bend published or 476 00:20:01,020 --> 00:19:59,110 wrote his own book that Barker published 477 00:20:04,830 --> 00:20:01,030 titled flying saucers and the three men 478 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:04,840 and in this book benders MIB a sort of 479 00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:06,610 far stranger there's a sort of 480 00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:09,520 definitively weird pale face glowing 481 00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:11,980 eyed sometimes men in black wig wearing 482 00:20:17,730 --> 00:20:15,480 makeup wearing characters that seem more 483 00:20:20,010 --> 00:20:17,740 ominous and unsettling than the 484 00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:20,020 government side of things and he said he 485 00:20:24,150 --> 00:20:21,580 would those entities would literally 486 00:20:25,530 --> 00:20:24,160 sort of manifest in the attic and he'd 487 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:25,540 go into almost like an altered state 488 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:27,910 where he would smell like fire and 489 00:20:33,030 --> 00:20:31,360 brimstone he feel dizzy and nauseous the 490 00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:33,040 room would start to spin and suddenly 491 00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:35,080 the man in black would appear he said 492 00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:37,060 that these were the entities that told 493 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:39,280 him to quit UFO research so in other 494 00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:41,530 words he was a contact II well yeah I 495 00:20:45,030 --> 00:20:43,120 mean you could you could you could all 496 00:20:47,670 --> 00:20:45,040 use a contact II but I think the 497 00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:47,680 important thing is that even bend a 498 00:20:52,170 --> 00:20:49,360 story which kicked off the many black 499 00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:52,180 mysteries does point out the you know 500 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:54,280 although there is a government angle to 501 00:20:58,710 --> 00:20:56,650 and ironically where they Bend a story 502 00:21:00,360 --> 00:20:58,720 gets confusing is that I used the 503 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:00,370 Freedom of Information Act and found 504 00:21:05,370 --> 00:21:03,010 that the FBI it actually opened files on 505 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:05,380 both bender and Barker even city X again 506 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:06,910 where there's one document in the file 507 00:21:10,830 --> 00:21:08,950 that I reproduce in the book which talks 508 00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:10,840 about how none other than j edgar Hoover 509 00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:12,460 ordered want to be their agents to get 510 00:21:16,110 --> 00:21:14,080 hold of Barker's they knew too much 511 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:16,120 about flying sources so you know on the 512 00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:17,920 one hand we have bender talking about 513 00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:21,070 being visited by paranormal almost men 514 00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:24,190 in black and yet we have the FBI who at 515 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:26,230 that time wore suits and fedoras or 516 00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:28,930 Homburg hat set cetera also taking an 517 00:21:33,570 --> 00:21:31,060 interest in bender so this is why he 518 00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:33,580 gets into such confusing and overlapping 519 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:35,740 areas I think but with bender can we 520 00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:37,990 take him seriously or did he just write 521 00:21:42,270 --> 00:21:40,270 that book and I gather Barker probably 522 00:21:44,250 --> 00:21:42,280 did heavy editing of it did he write 523 00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:44,260 that book just to answer the questions 524 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:46,870 or just to have a little notoriety 525 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:49,690 because of his interest in horror films 526 00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:51,730 of power and Rommel etc well I mean 527 00:21:55,620 --> 00:21:53,500 that's a good question it's one you know 528 00:21:57,630 --> 00:21:55,630 I also raised in the book there's you 529 00:22:00,780 --> 00:21:57,640 know I don't shy away from the fact that 530 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:00,790 this entire issue is steeped in in major 531 00:22:05,910 --> 00:22:03,850 controversy now for example you know as 532 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:05,920 I said there's no doubt that bender set 533 00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:08,200 up the organization and that he did 534 00:22:12,810 --> 00:22:10,270 reach you know big heights and bear in 535 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:12,820 mind this was also at the time when the 536 00:22:18,510 --> 00:22:15,370 CIA's Robertson panel was recommending 537 00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:18,520 that you know the early new UFO groups 538 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:19,900 in the US should be watched carefully 539 00:22:25,290 --> 00:22:22,690 you know for any issues relative to 540 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:25,300 patriotism or infiltration by the credit 541 00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:28,210 Russkies etc and so you know on the one 542 00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,700 hand some people speculated the bender 543 00:22:35,010 --> 00:22:32,320 actually got a visit from government 544 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:35,020 people but then kind of modified this 545 00:22:39,390 --> 00:22:37,510 into a fantastic tale of a meeting with 546 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:39,400 a cult men in black either to gain 547 00:22:43,890 --> 00:22:42,130 notoriety or because he was fearful of 548 00:22:45,690 --> 00:22:43,900 actually telling the truth and getting 549 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:45,700 to into trouble with the FBI 550 00:22:49,740 --> 00:22:48,190 but enough of the story of Lee co2 we're 551 00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:49,750 here to say something I'll tell you what 552 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:52,000 we'll down to more of Albert bender the 553 00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:54,010 real men in black and lots more with 554 00:22:58,410 --> 00:22:56,260 Nick Redfern I'm gene Steinberg the 555 00:23:01,230 --> 00:22:58,420 co-host is Chris O'Brien you're in the 556 00:23:08,270 --> 00:23:05,110 [Music] 557 00:23:10,730 --> 00:23:08,280 Ray Perkins a reclusive veteran burned 558 00:23:12,730 --> 00:23:10,740 out from the Gulf War lives tortured by 559 00:23:14,990 --> 00:23:12,740 relentless perplexing nightmares 560 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Jones and all those 645 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:34,780 people portray in the movies both the 646 00:27:38,790 --> 00:27:37,090 ones supposedly real with Nick Redfern 647 00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:38,800 the books called the real men in black 648 00:27:43,980 --> 00:27:40,960 I'm Jean Steinberg the co-host is Chris 649 00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:43,990 O'Brien a learned scholar according to 650 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:53,440 Nick getting away from me here it's 651 00:27:57,540 --> 00:27:55,690 being taken away and they're taking me 652 00:27:59,400 --> 00:27:57,550 away now okay let's have more of a 653 00:28:01,560 --> 00:27:59,410 devil's advocate theory here about 654 00:28:03,290 --> 00:28:01,570 Albert bender and that is do you 655 00:28:06,330 --> 00:28:03,300 consider the possibility here that 656 00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:06,340 bender contrived this men and black 657 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:08,830 thing just because he lost interest in 658 00:28:13,740 --> 00:28:11,410 UFOs why to get out of it and decide to 659 00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:13,750 go out with a bang as they were and then 660 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:17,760 after being contacted overwhelmed and 661 00:28:22,650 --> 00:28:20,710 otherwise being totally annoyed from 662 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:22,660 people who kept visiting him at his home 663 00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:24,130 writing him calling him over the years 664 00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:25,630 saying tell us about the men in black 665 00:28:29,310 --> 00:28:27,400 tell us about the men in black and he 666 00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:29,320 said okay I'll write a book well yeah I 667 00:28:33,090 --> 00:28:30,880 think there's an aspect to it but 668 00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:33,100 equally I think and most of the people I 669 00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:34,870 interviewed for the book also agreed 670 00:28:39,420 --> 00:28:37,030 that people who knew bender that he 671 00:28:41,550 --> 00:28:39,430 actually did get a visit from someone 672 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:41,560 the nature of who that someone is you 673 00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:43,810 know he's open to debate for example as 674 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:46,480 via Jerome Clark for the book and Jerry 675 00:28:50,790 --> 00:28:48,730 was you know very open to the idea that 676 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:50,800 the bender really did get a visit from 677 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:53,530 government agents possibly sort of an 678 00:28:58,740 --> 00:28:55,330 outgrowth of this recommendation from 679 00:29:01,050 --> 00:28:58,750 the Robertson panel but he also felt 680 00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:01,060 that bender basically wrote his book 681 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:03,160 flying saucer the three men to get the 682 00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:05,230 UFO community off his back now other 683 00:29:08,990 --> 00:29:07,120 people have speculated I get into this 684 00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:09,000 quite deeply in the book about how 685 00:29:13,950 --> 00:29:11,710 benders experiences may have been some 686 00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:13,960 sort of like internal psychological 687 00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:15,700 experience I talk about the fact that 688 00:29:19,410 --> 00:29:17,260 you know when the men in black would 689 00:29:21,210 --> 00:29:19,420 appear he would talk about you know 690 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:21,220 go into a dizzy spell he'd feel 691 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:23,050 light-headed as if it was drifting away 692 00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:24,850 into another world the room would be 693 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:27,220 filled with the sudden powerful odors 694 00:29:31,050 --> 00:29:29,530 like brimstone and then lo and behold 695 00:29:32,790 --> 00:29:31,060 the man in black would appear and then 696 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:32,800 after a while he would sort of drift 697 00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:34,930 back into reality and as I point out 698 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:37,720 altered state of mind intense migraines 699 00:29:42,930 --> 00:29:40,530 all of which bender experience even 700 00:29:45,090 --> 00:29:42,940 imaginary smells are all actually 701 00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:45,100 symptoms of a number of brain born 702 00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:47,200 situations one of which is epilepsy 703 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:49,630 epilepsy has all these characteristics 704 00:29:54,990 --> 00:29:52,210 migraines you know an altered state and 705 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:55,000 imaginary smells we had a lot of people 706 00:30:00,780 --> 00:29:58,090 reported like a brimstone type smell who 707 00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:00,790 have epileptic seizures now I'm not 708 00:30:05,670 --> 00:30:03,520 saying he definitely had epilepsy but 709 00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:05,680 when we look at these aspects and 710 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:08,080 characteristics of how the men in black 711 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:10,240 would appear and the physical effects it 712 00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:12,370 would have on bender I don't think we 713 00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,110 can rule out that the idea that he 714 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:16,720 wasn't a hoax he was genuine reporting 715 00:30:22,170 --> 00:30:18,730 something but a lot of it may have been 716 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:22,180 born out of a brain born psychological 717 00:30:26,250 --> 00:30:24,490 condition can linked with his own 718 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:26,260 subconscious worries about having 719 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:28,510 actually been visited by government 720 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:30,730 agents and it all sort of spilled out 721 00:30:35,310 --> 00:30:33,730 into almost like a waking dream type 722 00:30:37,710 --> 00:30:35,320 scenario that may have had even some 723 00:30:39,780 --> 00:30:37,720 sort of external reality to it who knows 724 00:30:41,490 --> 00:30:39,790 but I don't think it's as simple as he 725 00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:41,500 just wanted to quit the subject so he 726 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:43,180 wrote a book and saying this is why I 727 00:30:48,990 --> 00:30:45,610 quit now leave me alone now I remember 728 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:49,000 in my early years that bender appeared 729 00:30:53,610 --> 00:30:51,010 before Jim Mosley's discussion group in 730 00:30:55,410 --> 00:30:53,620 New York after the book came out after 731 00:30:57,780 --> 00:30:55,420 that I heard nothing from vendor did he 732 00:31:00,120 --> 00:30:57,790 just get out of it totally after that oh 733 00:31:01,980 --> 00:31:00,130 yeah I mean yeah he just quit the 734 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:01,990 subject I mean this is the interesting 735 00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:04,450 thing I mean you find afternoon ufology 736 00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:06,880 people quit it they come back to it or 737 00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:08,350 if they don't you know they'll write 738 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:10,840 their memoirs years later or they'll 739 00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:12,370 still stay in touch with people in the 740 00:31:16,050 --> 00:31:13,870 field and say hey you know what's the 741 00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:16,060 latest news that sort of thing the 742 00:31:20,430 --> 00:31:17,590 bender didn't you know when he said he 743 00:31:22,350 --> 00:31:20,440 was walking away he walked away you know 744 00:31:24,420 --> 00:31:22,360 he served some time to time again in 745 00:31:26,820 --> 00:31:24,430 other areas but certainly not in the 746 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:26,830 entire in the UFO subject I mean it was 747 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:28,450 a case that he just did not want 748 00:31:31,210 --> 00:31:30,250 anything else to do with it at all you 749 00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:31,220 said in other area 750 00:31:35,380 --> 00:31:33,440 so one of the things he was actually 751 00:31:38,980 --> 00:31:35,390 interested in was the music of Max 752 00:31:41,409 --> 00:31:38,990 Steiner and that was something that he 753 00:31:44,289 --> 00:31:41,419 got involved in quite deeply in and 754 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:44,299 around Los Angeles and people would see 755 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:46,250 him from time to time you know there 756 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:47,690 were stories people would try and 757 00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:49,250 photograph people call him off but he 758 00:31:54,159 --> 00:31:51,919 just did not want anything to do with 759 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:54,169 this at all and what he was actually 760 00:31:58,990 --> 00:31:56,090 doing when he was in California he was 761 00:32:01,620 --> 00:31:59,000 involved in preserving the work of Max 762 00:32:04,060 --> 00:32:01,630 Diane who's a film composer and 763 00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:04,070 essentially he just did not you know he 764 00:32:09,159 --> 00:32:06,500 would not speak to anyone who approached 765 00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:09,169 him about the UFO subject and and I 766 00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:12,320 think you know this to me just speak 767 00:32:16,779 --> 00:32:14,809 certain volumes in the sense that if he 768 00:32:19,180 --> 00:32:16,789 just wanted to quit you know it would be 769 00:32:21,630 --> 00:32:19,190 well okay I'll quit leave me alone it 770 00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:21,640 wasn't it was almost like a tear induced 771 00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:24,200 reluctance just not to talk about he 772 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:25,580 just did not want to go down that path 773 00:32:31,539 --> 00:32:28,610 anymore okay so we don't know of course 774 00:32:34,029 --> 00:32:31,549 what really happened to bender but do 775 00:32:37,270 --> 00:32:34,039 you think that the government really had 776 00:32:40,210 --> 00:32:37,280 people who'd run around and suggest to 777 00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:40,220 UFO witnesses or UFO Club heads hey 778 00:32:45,070 --> 00:32:42,830 don't talk about this well yeah I mean 779 00:32:47,140 --> 00:32:45,080 there's no doubt if we look at things 780 00:32:49,210 --> 00:32:47,150 from a historical perspective of when 781 00:32:51,399 --> 00:32:49,220 then to kick things off you know as I 782 00:32:53,770 --> 00:32:51,409 said I don't think the fact that bender 783 00:32:56,380 --> 00:32:53,780 was at the height of his work in 52 and 784 00:32:58,779 --> 00:32:56,390 53 but it's coincident this was the very 785 00:33:01,450 --> 00:32:58,789 same time frame that the Robertson panel 786 00:33:03,730 --> 00:33:01,460 was recommending hey you know we need to 787 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:03,740 watch these early UFO groups to see if 788 00:33:10,390 --> 00:33:06,770 the medium filtrated you know directly 789 00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:10,400 or indirectly what their patriotism or 790 00:33:15,070 --> 00:33:12,620 not isn't with respect to the United 791 00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:15,080 States watching closely and report back 792 00:33:20,740 --> 00:33:18,049 you know this is a very same timeframe 793 00:33:23,409 --> 00:33:20,750 does lead me to believe that there were 794 00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:23,419 government people going out according to 795 00:33:26,890 --> 00:33:24,740 the recommendations of the Robertson 796 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:26,900 panel watching UFO groups I mean we know 797 00:33:31,149 --> 00:33:29,600 the FBI visited people like George Van 798 00:33:33,130 --> 00:33:31,159 Tassel and George Adamski because 799 00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:33,140 they've Declassified their files which 800 00:33:38,289 --> 00:33:36,049 talk openly about the visits it may well 801 00:33:40,750 --> 00:33:38,299 be in in some cases those government 802 00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:40,760 people who for the early 1950s would 803 00:33:44,740 --> 00:33:41,990 have been dressed probably in black 804 00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:44,750 suits and Fedora type hats might have 805 00:33:47,379 --> 00:33:45,320 overstepped 806 00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:47,389 the mark and instead of just asking 807 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:48,950 questions about the group hey you know 808 00:33:52,419 --> 00:33:50,570 what's what's all this going on with 809 00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:52,429 UFOs what are you doing 810 00:33:56,259 --> 00:33:54,080 they may have overstepped the mark and 811 00:33:58,539 --> 00:33:56,269 made a veiled warning and some of these 812 00:34:01,509 --> 00:33:58,549 stories may have sort of nurtured the 813 00:34:03,460 --> 00:34:01,519 men in black mythology and I do wonder 814 00:34:06,159 --> 00:34:03,470 if that is what happened with bender but 815 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:06,169 then you know if he did have some sort 816 00:34:10,510 --> 00:34:08,810 of condition of the brain and all these 817 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:10,520 subconscious worries about you know 818 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:12,169 being visited from the FBI which might 819 00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:13,760 have been fairly traumatic for him 820 00:34:18,970 --> 00:34:16,639 spilled out into some sort of you know 821 00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:18,980 obscure but nevertheless significant 822 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:20,960 altered state in which this whole 823 00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:23,690 scenario plays out in his mind when he 824 00:34:27,609 --> 00:34:25,790 possibly is in an altered state but it 825 00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:27,619 is based on a reality that becomes 826 00:34:31,930 --> 00:34:29,720 distorted through his subconscious fears 827 00:34:34,690 --> 00:34:31,940 etc okay so where did the men in black 828 00:34:36,909 --> 00:34:34,700 begin was it with splendor or are there 829 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:36,919 other cases predating bender that 830 00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:39,770 involved people like this well you know 831 00:34:45,339 --> 00:34:43,040 there are you know I primarily began 832 00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:45,349 with bender in the book chiefly because 833 00:34:49,450 --> 00:34:47,030 you know he was the one person more than 834 00:34:51,550 --> 00:34:49,460 anybody else who kicked off the mystery 835 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:51,560 and then Barker certainly you know took 836 00:34:56,530 --> 00:34:53,690 you to even bigger levels in three years 837 00:34:59,680 --> 00:34:56,540 later in 1956 with his book but if you 838 00:35:02,680 --> 00:34:59,690 look back into certainly UFO lore from 839 00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:02,690 47 the sort of a notorious Maury Island 840 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:05,510 case in Tacoma where allegedly like a 841 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:08,450 fleet of UFOs were seen over the harbor 842 00:35:13,089 --> 00:35:10,250 at Maury island and one supposedly 843 00:35:15,849 --> 00:35:13,099 exploded and rained debris down onto the 844 00:35:17,530 --> 00:35:15,859 shore and into the waters that case he's 845 00:35:20,109 --> 00:35:17,540 sort of replete with men in black 846 00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:20,119 aspects things like telephone 847 00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:22,720 interference bugging of UFO researchers 848 00:35:27,790 --> 00:35:25,609 even somebody dressed in black warning 849 00:35:30,010 --> 00:35:27,800 one of the key players in the story not 850 00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:30,020 to talk about the event but when you 851 00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:31,760 look at it you know this sounds more 852 00:35:37,809 --> 00:35:34,609 like a straightforward intel up where 853 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:37,819 military personnel are going out and you 854 00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:39,650 know watching people talking about 855 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:41,390 memorial in case which may not have had 856 00:35:45,130 --> 00:35:42,890 me married to it but you know government 857 00:35:48,099 --> 00:35:45,140 was elements of the official world was 858 00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:48,109 still interested in it well I did they 859 00:35:52,750 --> 00:35:50,569 sent Air Force officers to collect 860 00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:52,760 physical evidence and they were killed 861 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:55,760 in a mysterious plane crash yeah you're 862 00:35:58,890 --> 00:35:57,050 right that's one of the strange things 863 00:36:01,260 --> 00:35:58,900 about the Mauri Island case so 864 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:01,270 again to me this sounds more like a 865 00:36:06,029 --> 00:36:04,210 straightforward military operation that 866 00:36:08,730 --> 00:36:06,039 had a lot of conspiratorial overtones 867 00:36:10,799 --> 00:36:08,740 but I'm not entirely sure it has 868 00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:10,809 anything to do with the weird of men in 869 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:12,880 black which is sort of the focus of the 870 00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:15,010 book you know I but the thrust of the 871 00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:17,710 book isn't so much the government angle 872 00:36:21,539 --> 00:36:19,119 or that although I do have a chapter or 873 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:21,549 two on that issue but it's to point out 874 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:24,490 to people that you know the the imagery 875 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:26,650 that we have of the men in black the 876 00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,410 government's MIB is actually a small 877 00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:31,839 aspect of the story and it may not be 878 00:36:36,359 --> 00:36:34,240 the most significant aspect either well 879 00:36:39,180 --> 00:36:36,369 Nick you also bring up and I think 880 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:39,190 insightfully so that all down through 881 00:36:44,010 --> 00:36:41,170 history there have been figures 882 00:36:46,410 --> 00:36:44,020 associated with unusual occurrences 883 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:46,420 warning people and oftentimes they're 884 00:36:51,870 --> 00:36:49,170 dressed in black we'll get into these 885 00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:51,880 historical men in black soon in our next 886 00:36:56,670 --> 00:36:54,400 segment we have Nick Redfern the book is 887 00:36:58,620 --> 00:36:56,680 the real men in black I'm Jean Steinberg 888 00:37:06,809 --> 00:36:58,630 the co-host is Chris O'Brien you're in 889 00:37:08,910 --> 00:37:06,819 the para cast so here's what happened I 890 00:37:11,549 --> 00:37:08,920 was placing an order online the site 891 00:37:13,710 --> 00:37:11,559 went down it just stopped responding it 892 00:37:14,970 --> 00:37:13,720 took hours before it returned but I'd 893 00:37:17,099 --> 00:37:14,980 already placed the order with another 894 00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:17,109 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the men in black not just the 978 00:41:35,359 --> 00:41:33,030 physical ones that may be somewhat more 979 00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:35,369 than physical the co-hosts Chris O'Brien 980 00:41:40,190 --> 00:41:37,260 I'm Jean Steinberg you're in the para 981 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:40,200 cast before we broke Chris was posing 982 00:41:44,630 --> 00:41:42,690 this fascinating question about 983 00:41:46,460 --> 00:41:44,640 historical men in black you want to 984 00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:46,470 continue with that question Chris before 985 00:41:51,530 --> 00:41:48,780 we get the answer well I think it's 986 00:41:54,260 --> 00:41:51,540 pretty simple that there have been 987 00:41:56,780 --> 00:41:54,270 reports down to history whether they're 988 00:41:59,390 --> 00:41:56,790 credible or not I think at this point is 989 00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,400 beside beside the point but figures 990 00:42:03,820 --> 00:42:01,200 dressed in black have figured 991 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:03,830 prominently in some pretty interesting 992 00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:06,450 incidences that have been supposedly 993 00:42:10,490 --> 00:42:09,089 documented and recorded down to history 994 00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:10,500 you want to address that a little bit 995 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:12,240 Nick yeah sure I mean this is an 996 00:42:16,070 --> 00:42:14,130 interesting thing is that when the more 997 00:42:18,140 --> 00:42:16,080 we look back into this mystery we find 998 00:42:20,180 --> 00:42:18,150 it's not just a modern-day one it's a 999 00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:20,190 very old one but it seems that the what 1000 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:21,839 we have today is more like a modern-day 1001 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:25,530 motif a very ancient puzzle if you like 1002 00:42:30,980 --> 00:42:27,890 now to give you a classic example in 1003 00:42:34,099 --> 00:42:30,990 1905 there was a wave of UFO encounters 1004 00:42:35,540 --> 00:42:34,109 in Wales in the United Kingdom these 1005 00:42:37,220 --> 00:42:35,550 were essentially if you read the 1006 00:42:37,850 --> 00:42:37,230 original newspaper reports they sound 1007 00:42:41,450 --> 00:42:37,860 like 1008 00:42:44,060 --> 00:42:41,460 Marfa lights or something along those 1009 00:42:45,950 --> 00:42:44,070 lines that was seen late at night in 1010 00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:45,960 sort of the dark hills and valleys of 1011 00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:48,420 Wales and you know people at the time 1012 00:42:51,950 --> 00:42:50,160 we're talking about UFOs and they 1013 00:42:54,380 --> 00:42:51,960 thought it was something supernatural or 1014 00:42:57,020 --> 00:42:54,390 paranormal one of the newspapers that 1015 00:42:59,420 --> 00:42:57,030 reported on this quite extensively was 1016 00:43:02,210 --> 00:42:59,430 called the barmouth advertiser and it 1017 00:43:04,490 --> 00:43:02,220 talks about how during these particular 1018 00:43:05,540 --> 00:43:04,500 encounters with these ghost lights in 1019 00:43:07,940 --> 00:43:05,550 and around the valleys and the hills 1020 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:07,950 this is an exact quote from the 1021 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:10,170 newspaper in the neighborhood dwells an 1022 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:12,090 exceptionally intelligent young woman of 1023 00:43:16,850 --> 00:43:14,370 the peasant stock whose bedroom has been 1024 00:43:18,980 --> 00:43:16,860 visited three nights in succession by a 1025 00:43:20,660 --> 00:43:18,990 man dressed in black this Biggers 1026 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:20,670 delivered a message to the girl which 1027 00:43:24,380 --> 00:43:22,890 she's too frightened to relate now that 1028 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:24,390 sounds like something straight out of 1029 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:27,930 Cale Barker or bender and its associated 1030 00:43:32,060 --> 00:43:29,970 weird lights the person delivers a 1031 00:43:34,460 --> 00:43:32,070 message which has intimidated the 1032 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:34,470 witness into silence and they're dressed 1033 00:43:37,370 --> 00:43:36,210 in black and they're a man you know it's 1034 00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:37,380 like you could not get a closer 1035 00:43:41,060 --> 00:43:38,940 description to the man in black than 1036 00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:41,070 that except for the fact that it 1037 00:43:45,740 --> 00:43:43,920 originates in a Welsh newspaper in 1905 1038 00:43:48,590 --> 00:43:45,750 you know so when we get things like this 1039 00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:48,600 it demonstrates the whatever the nature 1040 00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:50,310 the phenomenon you know it didn't begin 1041 00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:52,800 in the fifties or the forties and you 1042 00:43:58,070 --> 00:43:55,710 know with FBI personnel or see is a tree 1043 00:44:00,020 --> 00:43:58,080 you know the CIA and the FBI certainly 1044 00:44:01,310 --> 00:44:00,030 didn't exist back then and I'm quite 1045 00:44:03,260 --> 00:44:01,320 sure if they did they wouldn't have been 1046 00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:03,270 skulking around the valleys of Wales of 1047 00:44:10,310 --> 00:44:07,680 the supervisors I mean she remembered 1048 00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:10,320 the encounter but didn't want to talk 1049 00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:13,200 about it so evidently they left there 1050 00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:21,590 watch out for those neuralyzer z-- you 1051 00:44:25,250 --> 00:44:23,190 know neuralyzer might be like a cell 1052 00:44:31,340 --> 00:44:25,260 phone we know that cell phones now can 1053 00:44:32,570 --> 00:44:31,350 fry your brain using a cell phone you 1054 00:44:35,090 --> 00:44:32,580 know some people say it's not the best 1055 00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:35,100 thing which I don't know we all use cell 1056 00:44:38,510 --> 00:44:36,960 phones I guess in 50 years if we've all 1057 00:44:41,690 --> 00:44:38,520 got brain cancer we'll know they were 1058 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:41,700 right sir put it on speaker dude mm-hmm 1059 00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:43,890 but yeah I mean this is just one example 1060 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:47,040 of you know an old report there are also 1061 00:44:51,620 --> 00:44:49,170 reports let's sound just like the men in 1062 00:44:53,810 --> 00:44:51,630 black of mysterious characters 1063 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:53,820 turning up in sort of the 15 and 16 1064 00:44:59,330 --> 00:44:57,450 hundreds in when people doing research 1065 00:45:01,370 --> 00:44:59,340 into the realm of alchemy you know 1066 00:45:03,380 --> 00:45:01,380 they're these black cloaked figures but 1067 00:45:05,780 --> 00:45:03,390 they're not sort of suit-wearing Homburg 1068 00:45:09,700 --> 00:45:05,790 wearing figures but black cloak figures 1069 00:45:13,010 --> 00:45:09,710 would return up and impart secrets about 1070 00:45:15,620 --> 00:45:13,020 alchemy and stress to the person the 1071 00:45:17,180 --> 00:45:15,630 importance of not dabbling recklessly in 1072 00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:17,190 this sort of field and then they'd 1073 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:19,680 vanish as mysteriously as they appeared 1074 00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,050 you know so you have to wonder has it 1075 00:45:26,270 --> 00:45:24,240 been a rather the mystery been around as 1076 00:45:29,450 --> 00:45:26,280 long as we've been around you know but 1077 00:45:31,210 --> 00:45:29,460 even perhaps its motif changes depending 1078 00:45:32,990 --> 00:45:31,220 on the cultural settings and the 1079 00:45:36,260 --> 00:45:33,000 perceptions of the people of the 1080 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:36,270 particular time Chris oh oh it's up to 1081 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:42,090 me well that's a really good point Nick 1082 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:44,850 and like many subjects in the paranormal 1083 00:45:50,750 --> 00:45:47,010 that appear to have a modern sort of 1084 00:45:54,110 --> 00:45:50,760 face if you dig deep enough and go back 1085 00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:54,120 in time you find tantalizing clues that 1086 00:45:58,670 --> 00:45:56,640 maybe some of these paranormal mysteries 1087 00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:58,680 that we're you know thinking as a modern 1088 00:46:04,490 --> 00:46:00,960 thing actually have more ancient roots 1089 00:46:06,770 --> 00:46:04,500 and I think this is an important point 1090 00:46:09,410 --> 00:46:06,780 that you bring up in the book and why 1091 00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:09,420 don't we continue kind of in our 1092 00:46:14,780 --> 00:46:12,510 timeline here in the 50s look at some of 1093 00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:14,790 the other cases that occurred that 1094 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:18,060 support some sort of paranormal that 1095 00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:19,650 appears to be government or government 1096 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:22,350 that appears to be paranormal cases that 1097 00:46:28,310 --> 00:46:25,530 kind of help fuel this this whole thing 1098 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:28,320 as its burbling in the culture and and 1099 00:46:33,500 --> 00:46:30,690 look at some of those earlier cases from 1100 00:46:36,020 --> 00:46:33,510 the 50s well I mean even bark himself 1101 00:46:38,210 --> 00:46:36,030 you know was really responsible not just 1102 00:46:40,070 --> 00:46:38,220 with his book so sort of nurturing the 1103 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:40,080 men in black history but he even claimed 1104 00:46:45,170 --> 00:46:42,930 to have been visited by an agent of the 1105 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:45,180 FBI who wanted to know all about 1106 00:46:50,750 --> 00:46:48,090 Bender's IFSP which you know could be 1107 00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:50,760 seen as adding weight to the notion that 1108 00:46:54,830 --> 00:46:52,560 bender actually really did get a visit 1109 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:54,840 from government people now you know 1110 00:46:59,360 --> 00:46:56,970 people speculated that because Barker 1111 00:47:01,610 --> 00:46:59,370 everybody into you know the BAU barkas 1112 00:47:03,620 --> 00:47:01,620 you know said no the guy was not a liar 1113 00:47:05,420 --> 00:47:03,630 when he greener he wrote the books that 1114 00:47:07,579 --> 00:47:05,430 he wrote but he wasn't above 1115 00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:07,589 turning you know a bright sunny day into 1116 00:47:12,559 --> 00:47:09,839 the proverbial dark and stormy night and 1117 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:12,569 he would perhaps modify a few things not 1118 00:47:17,809 --> 00:47:15,450 from a deceptive perspective but 1119 00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:17,819 actually trying to get across real ideas 1120 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:20,520 themes etc that he believed and that he 1121 00:47:25,130 --> 00:47:22,530 felt you know changing a few things here 1122 00:47:29,839 --> 00:47:25,140 and there if you had the desired effect 1123 00:47:31,790 --> 00:47:29,849 was worthwhile he'll yes so we have to 1124 00:47:33,950 --> 00:47:31,800 be very careful you know with some of 1125 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:33,960 these early accounts from bender and 1126 00:47:39,230 --> 00:47:34,650 Barker 1127 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:39,240 alleged experience with a mayor with an 1128 00:47:44,660 --> 00:47:42,690 FBI agent and throughout the fifties you 1129 00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:44,670 know we get things like this we see 1130 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:48,960 reports of people turning up apparently 1131 00:47:53,540 --> 00:47:51,170 looking like government agents and 1132 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:53,550 silencing people but then in the sixties 1133 00:47:57,410 --> 00:47:55,410 you know which is still sort of the 1134 00:48:00,440 --> 00:47:57,420 early years of men in black research we 1135 00:48:03,020 --> 00:48:00,450 do see a change where it becomes 1136 00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:03,030 definitively weird and I think this is 1137 00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:06,480 partly Joerg majorly due to the fact 1138 00:48:10,910 --> 00:48:08,220 that Barker was still on the scene and 1139 00:48:13,099 --> 00:48:10,920 John keel came on the scene as well and 1140 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:13,109 you know began doing research into 1141 00:48:18,319 --> 00:48:14,970 places like Point Pleasant with the 1142 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:18,329 Mothman saga and the many and varied men 1143 00:48:22,849 --> 00:48:20,970 in black but turned up in that 1144 00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:22,859 particular situation I mean I talk about 1145 00:48:27,049 --> 00:48:25,049 these in the book as well you know the 1146 00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:27,059 fact that a lot of people because you 1147 00:48:31,490 --> 00:48:29,760 see the Mothman Prophecies film you know 1148 00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:31,500 it tells the story of Mothman but the 1149 00:48:37,789 --> 00:48:33,420 man in black don't appear in it at all 1150 00:48:39,559 --> 00:48:37,799 but it's it's it's Richard Gere is 1151 00:48:41,180 --> 00:48:39,569 actually kind of the man in black yeah 1152 00:48:42,890 --> 00:48:41,190 you know you don't really have any sort 1153 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:42,900 of real man in black but if you read 1154 00:48:48,140 --> 00:48:45,450 keels book you know it's dominated by 1155 00:48:51,049 --> 00:48:48,150 men in black encounters and a number of 1156 00:48:54,049 --> 00:48:51,059 these in the town of Point Pleasant were 1157 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:54,059 reported by a local journalist newspaper 1158 00:48:56,890 --> 00:48:55,530 journalist on the Point Pleasant 1159 00:48:59,390 --> 00:48:56,900 skirmishes the Point Pleasant 1160 00:49:01,549 --> 00:48:59,400 correspondent for West Virginia paper 1161 00:49:04,579 --> 00:49:01,559 called the messenger a woman named Mary 1162 00:49:06,770 --> 00:49:04,589 hyre and she reported to quell a number 1163 00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:06,780 of been counters with the men in black 1164 00:49:12,650 --> 00:49:10,049 one who literally sort of turned up late 1165 00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:12,660 one night and he had sort of like a bowl 1166 00:49:16,910 --> 00:49:14,609 type haircut was actually smaller than 1167 00:49:19,130 --> 00:49:16,920 five feet in height and these weird 1168 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:19,140 hypnotic eyes the craziest thing 1169 00:49:24,140 --> 00:49:20,970 valued of all was that he seemed weirdly 1170 00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:24,150 obsessed by hires ballpoint pen and when 1171 00:49:27,850 --> 00:49:25,920 he she told him well he could keep it he 1172 00:49:30,650 --> 00:49:27,860 sort of gave out of this bone-chilling 1173 00:49:32,690 --> 00:49:30,660 cackle like laughs and charged us at the 1174 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:32,700 door into the night you know this is 1175 00:49:37,070 --> 00:49:34,770 just sort of a bizarre things that we 1176 00:49:39,020 --> 00:49:37,080 get in these men in black reports you 1177 00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:39,030 know there's they sort of almost thrive 1178 00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:41,310 on absurdity if you like sounds like the 1179 00:49:46,010 --> 00:49:43,200 tricks to me Jean and you know another 1180 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:46,020 question I'd ask here then is we know of 1181 00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:47,970 course a great Barker and especially 1182 00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:49,710 John keel were probing into these men 1183 00:49:53,780 --> 00:49:52,110 and black cases especially cases where 1184 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:53,790 the men in black did not seem to be 1185 00:49:57,650 --> 00:49:55,290 government agents but something 1186 00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:57,660 altogether different do those cases 1187 00:50:03,140 --> 00:50:00,240 exist outside of their investigations of 1188 00:50:05,690 --> 00:50:03,150 them did they persist after teal and 1189 00:50:07,550 --> 00:50:05,700 Barker left the scene well yeah they do 1190 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:07,560 I mean I'll give you another quick 1191 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:10,890 example of Cal's involvement if you like 1192 00:50:14,510 --> 00:50:12,810 which is a really very very strange 1193 00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:14,520 story but just before I get to the issue 1194 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:16,800 you know whether they existed after 1195 00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:18,450 they've finished their investigations 1196 00:50:21,530 --> 00:50:19,680 one of the people I interviewed 1197 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:21,540 extensively for the book was Brad 1198 00:50:26,060 --> 00:50:23,850 Steiger because Brad who still you know 1199 00:50:28,580 --> 00:50:26,070 a big player on the scene today he was 1200 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:28,590 around you know back in the early to mid 1201 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:30,690 sixties when the so the second wave of 1202 00:50:35,450 --> 00:50:33,690 men in black law if you like was really 1203 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:35,460 taking off and he got to know people 1204 00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:39,570 like kale Barker Jim Mosely Allen 1205 00:50:45,710 --> 00:50:43,710 Greenfield people like that and Styger 1206 00:50:46,850 --> 00:50:45,720 told me one of the interviews that I did 1207 00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:46,860 with him for the book and this is 1208 00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:49,440 reproduced in the book how there was one 1209 00:50:52,550 --> 00:50:50,880 thing he wanted to discuss with me or 1210 00:50:54,650 --> 00:50:52,560 chose to discuss with me which he was a 1211 00:50:57,230 --> 00:50:54,660 bit reticent to do so and he never 1212 00:51:00,590 --> 00:50:57,240 spoken about before but he told me how 1213 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:00,600 when he came to know John keel and you 1214 00:51:04,820 --> 00:51:01,530 know they would have been there together 1215 00:51:07,550 --> 00:51:04,830 and a meet up etc there he told him how 1216 00:51:10,070 --> 00:51:07,560 qu'il told Steiger one occasion the men 1217 00:51:13,310 --> 00:51:10,080 in black hats visited qu'il at his own 1218 00:51:15,980 --> 00:51:13,320 apartments and according to the story 1219 00:51:18,830 --> 00:51:15,990 told to Steiger by kail these men in 1220 00:51:22,310 --> 00:51:18,840 black literally manifested through the 1221 00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:22,320 front door of his apartment and Styger 1222 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:24,270 said when he was sat opposite him here 1223 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:26,130 in this story he did not get the opinion 1224 00:51:30,860 --> 00:51:28,530 that you know kill was pulling his leg 1225 00:51:32,359 --> 00:51:30,870 yanking his chain or whatever that he 1226 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:32,369 was deadly serious 1227 00:51:36,170 --> 00:51:33,890 you know these men in black had 1228 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:36,180 essentially scared the hell out of me by 1229 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:38,249 just literally kind of materializing 1230 00:51:42,109 --> 00:51:40,410 through the door we'll have more of 1231 00:51:44,839 --> 00:51:42,119 these incredible counters of the men in 1232 00:51:47,450 --> 00:51:44,849 black with Nicolas Redfern author of the 1233 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:47,460 real men in black the co-host is Chris 1234 00:51:57,799 --> 00:51:56,249 O'Brien you're in the very cast hi this 1235 00:52:00,019 --> 00:51:57,809 is Ted Anderson if you'd like to listen 1236 00:52:00,529 --> 00:52:00,029 to GCN programs on the go I have great 1237 00:52:02,420 --> 00:52:00,539 news 1238 00:52:04,430 --> 00:52:02,430 gzn has created a Droid and iPhone 1239 00:52:06,529 --> 00:52:04,440 application and it's free just as easy 1240 00:52:08,269 --> 00:52:06,539 as going to GCN live.com click on the 1241 00:52:09,529 --> 00:52:08,279 banner and download before you know it 1242 00:52:11,749 --> 00:52:09,539 you'll be listening to your favorite 1243 00:52:14,029 --> 00:52:11,759 hard-hitting GCN shows live around a man 1244 00:52:15,769 --> 00:52:14,039 right on your droid or iphone 24/7 and 1245 00:52:17,420 --> 00:52:15,779 on the go so download the droid an 1246 00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:17,430 iPhone app free by clicking on the 1247 00:52:21,319 --> 00:52:19,529 banner at GCU live.com thanks again for 1248 00:52:23,599 --> 00:52:21,329 listening to GC and live.com again 1249 00:52:24,799 --> 00:52:23,609 that's juicy and live.com hi this is Ted 1250 00:52:26,660 --> 00:52:24,809 Anderson have you ever wondered why 1251 00:52:28,430 --> 00:52:26,670 banks stock workers investment advisors 1252 00:52:30,589 --> 00:52:28,440 won't talk about gold IRAs they've been 1253 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:30,599 available since 1986 yet the financial 1254 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:32,130 industry won't recognize the value of 1255 00:52:35,450 --> 00:52:33,690 gold for your retirement gold has 1256 00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:35,460 outperformed paper investments yet no 1257 00:52:48,609 --> 00:52:37,200 word about IRAs if you would like to 1258 00:52:48,619 --> 00:52:54,510 806-853-9949 1259 00:53:00,609 --> 00:52:57,550 welcome back to the pear cast the gold 1260 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:00,619 standard of paranormal radio and now 1261 00:53:10,750 --> 00:53:09,170 here's Jean Steinberg I want to remind 1262 00:53:13,810 --> 00:53:10,760 you that we're still working on these 1263 00:53:16,030 --> 00:53:13,820 ideas for a premium service the power 1264 00:53:19,210 --> 00:53:16,040 cast Pro we welcome your suggestions 1265 00:53:22,089 --> 00:53:19,220 special interview special videos lots 1266 00:53:24,460 --> 00:53:22,099 more stuff in the wings let us know what 1267 00:53:27,099 --> 00:53:24,470 do you think about all of this write us 1268 00:53:30,940 --> 00:53:27,109 news at the power cast com that's news 1269 00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,950 at the Parra cast comm we have Nick 1270 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:32,960 Redfern he's offering a book called the 1271 00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:35,570 real men in black subtitled evidence 1272 00:53:40,810 --> 00:53:38,510 famous cases and true stories of these 1273 00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:40,820 mysterious men and their connection to 1274 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:43,910 UFO phenomena he's not talking about the 1275 00:53:48,339 --> 00:53:45,890 lyrics of Will Smith's men and black 1276 00:53:51,099 --> 00:53:48,349 song from the movie the coast is Chris 1277 00:53:53,740 --> 00:53:51,109 O'Brien I'm Jean Steinberg you're in the 1278 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:53,750 para cast before we broke you were 1279 00:53:58,800 --> 00:53:56,450 telling us a story and the story is that 1280 00:54:00,940 --> 00:53:58,810 these men in black in a sense 1281 00:54:02,609 --> 00:54:00,950 materialized in his apartment in New 1282 00:54:05,770 --> 00:54:02,619 York right where he said for example 1283 00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:05,780 that he was talking to Brad Steiger 1284 00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:08,089 about this and he said that the three 1285 00:54:11,589 --> 00:54:09,680 men in black materialized 1286 00:54:14,140 --> 00:54:11,599 in his New York apartment would you go 1287 00:54:16,750 --> 00:54:14,150 on yes yeah well this is sort of one of 1288 00:54:18,839 --> 00:54:16,760 the strangest stories and and surprising 1289 00:54:21,670 --> 00:54:18,849 stories you know I never anticipated 1290 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:21,680 getting anything like this and when I 1291 00:54:25,180 --> 00:54:23,450 interviewed Brad stager because he was 1292 00:54:27,099 --> 00:54:25,190 sort of a key player but he still he's a 1293 00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:27,109 key player in the phenomena today but 1294 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:28,400 certainly you know he's one of the 1295 00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:30,530 earliest players in the in the second 1296 00:54:35,020 --> 00:54:32,720 wave of men in black encounters in the 1297 00:54:38,589 --> 00:54:35,030 1960s and got to know people like Jim 1298 00:54:41,050 --> 00:54:38,599 Mosely John keel Allen Greenfield all 1299 00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:41,060 the early people in MIB research and 1300 00:54:45,309 --> 00:54:43,730 Brad told me there was a story that was 1301 00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:45,319 given to him by keel that he felt a 1302 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:47,119 little bit reticent about tell him but 1303 00:54:51,970 --> 00:54:48,530 he said because Kayla told him 1304 00:54:53,950 --> 00:54:51,980 personally you know he felt there was a 1305 00:54:57,940 --> 00:54:53,960 time to relate it and he said that how 1306 00:54:59,740 --> 00:54:57,950 on one occasion kala told him that the 1307 00:55:01,120 --> 00:54:59,750 keel himself had had an encounter with 1308 00:55:02,890 --> 00:55:01,130 the man in but they already covered in a 1309 00:55:04,569 --> 00:55:02,900 previous segment Nick I want to repeat I 1310 00:55:06,850 --> 00:55:04,579 just want to go to the point where they 1311 00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:06,860 appear in his apartment go ahead okay 1312 00:55:12,220 --> 00:55:08,960 while the men in black appear in kales 1313 00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:12,230 apartment and essentially you know that 1314 00:55:15,460 --> 00:55:13,730 there's there's a threat made you know 1315 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:15,470 it's sort of an intimidating thing about 1316 00:55:21,610 --> 00:55:17,810 you know this isn't an area to be 1317 00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:21,620 digging into or delving into and the the 1318 00:55:27,610 --> 00:55:24,050 story was that you know it really did 1319 00:55:29,830 --> 00:55:27,620 spook kale you know it certainly didn't 1320 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:29,840 make him quit his research but the fact 1321 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:32,690 that these MIB appeared you know made 1322 00:55:37,420 --> 00:55:35,570 the usual veiled threat and then kind of 1323 00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:37,430 a fairly vanished as weirdly as they'd 1324 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:40,400 first appeared made him realize I made 1325 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:42,410 Steiger realized as well that this 1326 00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:44,210 wasn't just you know some sort of 1327 00:55:48,820 --> 00:55:46,400 government psychological operation that 1328 00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:48,830 there was a far weird a thing going on 1329 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:52,310 and you're sure certain here that he'll 1330 00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:54,650 at least as far as Stigers concern was 1331 00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:56,480 not pulling his leg so I could tell me 1332 00:56:00,640 --> 00:55:58,010 that he was absolutely convinced that 1333 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:00,650 kale from his mannerisms in the way 1334 00:56:04,540 --> 00:56:03,050 related the story was telling him an 1335 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:04,550 absolute truth 1336 00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:07,610 you know the kale fully believed this 1337 00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:10,310 experience occurred and related it as it 1338 00:56:19,770 --> 00:56:16,400 occurred to Brett Chris well that kind 1339 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:19,780 of would explain some of Kiehl's post 1340 00:56:25,180 --> 00:56:22,490 you know Mothman Prophecies work as 1341 00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:25,190 being you know you kind of ratcheted up 1342 00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:27,440 the paranoia I think in the man he 1343 00:56:32,890 --> 00:56:30,110 seemed to get a little twitchy after 1344 00:56:35,620 --> 00:56:32,900 that do you see any other 1345 00:56:38,620 --> 00:56:35,630 I mean you've researched this subject so 1346 00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:38,630 extensively do we have any other clues 1347 00:56:42,510 --> 00:56:40,490 that Keogh may have had other encounters 1348 00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:42,520 with men in black or was warned off 1349 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:46,250 particular investigations of course you 1350 00:56:52,690 --> 00:56:49,130 know Mothman is filled with these weird 1351 00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:52,700 phone calls arriving at a motel just by 1352 00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:56,810 chance he wanted to you know stop for 1353 00:57:00,460 --> 00:56:58,490 the night and he'd arrive at the hotel 1354 00:57:02,670 --> 00:57:00,470 and there'd be a message waiting for him 1355 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:02,680 and he picked them the motel at random 1356 00:57:07,710 --> 00:57:05,330 this is this is like the area I think 1357 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:07,720 where we get into more of a paranormal 1358 00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:10,370 version of the men men in black that 1359 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:13,310 that almost seem to be time-based in 1360 00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:15,170 nature and I'm I'm sure we're gonna 1361 00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:17,710 cover the whole you know time traveler 1362 00:57:24,870 --> 00:57:22,570 potential in this show but do we have 1363 00:57:28,580 --> 00:57:24,880 any other indications that qu'il was 1364 00:57:31,950 --> 00:57:28,590 visited subsequently - to the Mosman 1365 00:57:34,290 --> 00:57:31,960 investigation well we don't have hard 1366 00:57:35,940 --> 00:57:34,300 evidence that he was visited but I mean 1367 00:57:38,370 --> 00:57:35,950 you do make a good point when you point 1368 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:38,380 out that I think one of the things Cale 1369 00:57:43,650 --> 00:57:41,050 realized was that the more he delve into 1370 00:57:47,070 --> 00:57:43,660 the phenomenon the more the phenomenon 1371 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:47,080 began to get its grips into him and you 1372 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:48,850 know you rightly point out and as I 1373 00:57:52,730 --> 00:57:50,890 noticed in the book you know he would go 1374 00:57:55,230 --> 00:57:52,740 on investigations and have these weird 1375 00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:55,240 events with synchronicities happened 1376 00:57:59,640 --> 00:57:57,370 pulling up a hotel and then finding 1377 00:58:02,040 --> 00:57:59,650 somebody calls him in a weird mechanical 1378 00:58:03,810 --> 00:58:02,050 voice on the phone when no one knows 1379 00:58:06,290 --> 00:58:03,820 he's there you know there was mail 1380 00:58:09,420 --> 00:58:06,300 interference extensive telephone 1381 00:58:13,980 --> 00:58:09,430 interference and I think reading keels 1382 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:13,990 work you begin to realize that he he was 1383 00:58:18,510 --> 00:58:15,730 clear on one thing that when you look 1384 00:58:21,150 --> 00:58:18,520 into this phenomena somehow it realizes 1385 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:21,160 you're looking and it turns the tables 1386 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:23,650 and I think kale alludes to this 1387 00:58:29,370 --> 00:58:26,890 throughout his work and you know purely 1388 00:58:31,020 --> 00:58:29,380 simply because it happened to him and I 1389 00:58:34,710 --> 00:58:31,030 think because of this largely unknown 1390 00:58:36,750 --> 00:58:34,720 story told by Brad Steiger then I think 1391 00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:36,760 this has to had some sort of bearing 1392 00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:40,720 upon kales conclusions you know if he 1393 00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:43,570 wasn't all in anybody's leg or whatever 1394 00:58:48,030 --> 00:58:46,000 or wasn't hallucinating and three 1395 00:58:51,210 --> 00:58:48,040 shadowy figures really did materialize 1396 00:58:53,850 --> 00:58:51,220 in his room then to me that would fully 1397 00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:53,860 explain why his writings from then on 1398 00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:57,610 were went down the pathway that sort of 1399 00:59:03,450 --> 00:59:00,160 fetched any far away from you know nuts 1400 00:59:05,610 --> 00:59:03,460 and bolts UFOs or Mothman is just a 1401 00:59:07,050 --> 00:59:05,620 flesh-and-blood animal or Bigfoot it's a 1402 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:07,060 flesh-and-blood animal you know his 1403 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:09,010 entire writing from then on pretty much 1404 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:11,610 was down the pathway that no this is 1405 00:59:16,710 --> 00:59:14,290 definitively paranoid or regardless of 1406 00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:16,720 how we define what the paranormal is or 1407 00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:18,970 isn't it also sounds like it became 1408 00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:23,200 definitively paranoid because of fear 1409 00:59:27,210 --> 00:59:24,930 that something bad was going to happen 1410 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:27,220 well this is actually something this is 1411 00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:29,890 a trend or a characteristic that you 1412 00:59:35,099 --> 00:59:31,210 find 1413 00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:35,109 the entirety of MIB law and visitation I 1414 00:59:38,940 --> 00:59:37,089 don't think there's hardly anybody I 1415 00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:38,950 interviewed for the book in terms of 1416 00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:41,890 eyewitnesses at least who had had a man 1417 00:59:46,319 --> 00:59:44,530 in black in cancer who didn't for a 1418 00:59:47,819 --> 00:59:46,329 while afterwards at least to a degree 1419 00:59:50,059 --> 00:59:47,829 become paranoid 1420 00:59:52,589 --> 00:59:50,069 now that's not you know that's not a 1421 00:59:54,359 --> 00:59:52,599 mismatch in their character it was just 1422 00:59:56,730 --> 00:59:54,369 the fact that the experience so 1423 00:59:58,349 --> 00:59:56,740 traumatized them that for a while some 1424 00:59:59,940 --> 00:59:58,359 of them you know they will be looking 1425 01:00:02,010 --> 00:59:59,950 through the blinds and if a black cop 1426 01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:02,020 all up outside or went slowly by in the 1427 01:00:06,319 --> 01:00:04,240 street you know it would induce a panic 1428 01:00:09,150 --> 01:00:06,329 attack or the heart would just race 1429 01:00:11,940 --> 01:00:09,160 other people you know it didn't just 1430 01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:11,950 sort of affect them for a month or two 1431 01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:14,400 you know it had major long-standing 1432 01:00:18,290 --> 01:00:16,690 effects to where they almost plunged 1433 01:00:19,980 --> 01:00:18,300 into kind of like a post-traumatic 1434 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:19,990 stress disorder 1435 01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:22,210 I mean Albert bender you know when his 1436 01:00:27,089 --> 01:00:24,250 experiences when the men in black began 1437 01:00:30,329 --> 01:00:27,099 you know he was sort of like bright-eyed 1438 01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:30,339 and ready to hit the UFO research field 1439 01:00:34,770 --> 01:00:32,319 so to speak over time you know you'd be 1440 01:00:38,220 --> 01:00:34,780 pummeled by migraines ill-health he 1441 01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:38,230 developed a totally illogical fear of 1442 01:00:42,990 --> 01:00:40,240 developing cancer when he was only a you 1443 01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:43,000 know very young man you know he would 1444 01:00:47,250 --> 01:00:45,609 see shadowy entities even in the cinema 1445 01:00:49,829 --> 01:00:47,260 when he'd gone on a Saturday night you 1446 01:00:51,630 --> 01:00:49,839 know he was he claims have seen sort of 1447 01:00:53,069 --> 01:00:51,640 men in black type characters sitting in 1448 01:00:54,690 --> 01:00:53,079 the corner and the shadows of the old 1449 01:00:59,280 --> 01:00:54,700 theater when you'd be there watching 1450 01:01:01,680 --> 01:00:59,290 films so you know we see this developing 1451 01:01:04,410 --> 01:01:01,690 massively in people who've had MIB 1452 01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:04,420 visits you know the idea that you know 1453 01:01:08,670 --> 01:01:06,250 overwhelms and experience overwhelms 1454 01:01:11,490 --> 01:01:08,680 them and to an extent you know he takes 1455 01:01:14,130 --> 01:01:11,500 over their life and Bender also 1456 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:14,140 developed there's become for me don't 1457 01:01:19,380 --> 01:01:16,770 work we can guarantee can sort of 1458 01:01:21,539 --> 01:01:19,390 realize this he developed an OCD 1459 01:01:23,579 --> 01:01:21,549 obsessive compulsive disorder 1460 01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:23,589 he actually points out in his book how 1461 01:01:28,349 --> 01:01:26,650 in his office everything has its own 1462 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:28,359 place and he could immediately tell if 1463 01:01:31,620 --> 01:01:29,890 anything have been moved even slightly 1464 01:01:34,319 --> 01:01:31,630 and he would even get really irritated 1465 01:01:36,059 --> 01:01:34,329 if friends visited and picked something 1466 01:01:37,980 --> 01:01:36,069 up and didn't put it up back in its 1467 01:01:42,210 --> 01:01:37,990 exact place you know that's like a 1468 01:01:44,250 --> 01:01:42,220 classic OCD soft it which is often 1469 01:01:45,029 --> 01:01:44,260 provoked when somebody has a traumatic 1470 01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:45,039 event 1471 01:01:51,719 --> 01:01:48,130 and controlling their environment helps 1472 01:01:54,809 --> 01:01:51,729 them to ease that trauma well this is an 1473 01:01:57,779 --> 01:01:54,819 interesting case here then and can we 1474 01:02:01,159 --> 01:01:57,789 look into a whole case history of people 1475 01:02:05,279 --> 01:02:01,169 with OCD that's something frightening 1476 01:02:07,859 --> 01:02:05,289 precipitated those particular reactions 1477 01:02:09,299 --> 01:02:07,869 or behavior well I mean I wouldn't try 1478 01:02:11,549 --> 01:02:09,309 to you know claim to be a psychologist 1479 01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:11,559 psychologist or psychiatrist or anything 1480 01:02:17,459 --> 01:02:14,400 like that but I think you know a lot of 1481 01:02:20,099 --> 01:02:17,469 long-standing psychological conditions 1482 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:20,109 do have a basis in you know one 1483 01:02:25,890 --> 01:02:23,890 underlying incidence or event I mean I'm 1484 01:02:27,239 --> 01:02:25,900 not going to name names but I mean I'll 1485 01:02:29,099 --> 01:02:27,249 give you a classic example you had 1486 01:02:31,140 --> 01:02:29,109 nothing to do with ufology but it does 1487 01:02:32,579 --> 01:02:31,150 have a bearing on you know the question 1488 01:02:34,319 --> 01:02:32,589 you brought up I'll tell you what I'll 1489 01:02:36,719 --> 01:02:34,329 ask you to recite that case in our next 1490 01:02:38,759 --> 01:02:36,729 segment okay we have Nick Redfern the 1491 01:02:40,769 --> 01:02:38,769 book is called the real men in black I'm 1492 01:02:43,700 --> 01:02:40,779 Jean Steinberg the co-host is Chris 1493 01:02:52,860 --> 01:02:43,710 O'Brien you're in the para Cass 1494 01:02:56,890 --> 01:02:54,450 [Music] 1495 01:02:58,660 --> 01:02:56,900 have you been sitting on a few great 1496 01:03:00,579 --> 01:02:58,670 domain name ideas but haven't locked 1497 01:03:01,900 --> 01:03:00,589 them in for yourself good now you can 1498 01:03:04,089 --> 01:03:01,910 buy them through the number one domain 1499 01:03:05,650 --> 01:03:04,099 name registrar namecheap.com 1500 01:03:07,599 --> 01:03:05,660 as voted by the top tech blog life 1501 01:03:10,539 --> 01:03:07,609 hacker just like the name says you can 1502 01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:10,549 buy domains cheap as low as $2.99 and 1503 01:03:15,069 --> 01:03:12,710 every new domain comes with Whois guard 1504 01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:15,079 our special privacy service free for the 1505 01:03:18,309 --> 01:03:16,880 first year now that you know it's time 1506 01:03:19,329 --> 01:03:18,319 to grab those domain names before 1507 01:03:22,779 --> 01:03:19,339 someone else does 1508 01:03:24,789 --> 01:03:22,789 namecheap.com go down namecheap.com fate 1509 01:03:26,319 --> 01:03:24,799 magazine provides true reports of the 1510 01:03:28,359 --> 01:03:26,329 strange and unknown keep up with the 1511 01:03:31,059 --> 01:03:28,369 latest on angels and miracle psychic 1512 01:03:32,049 --> 01:03:31,069 phenomena ghosts UFOs life after death 1513 01:03:33,819 --> 01:03:32,059 and much much more 1514 01:03:36,039 --> 01:03:33,829 to receive your free issue of fate 1515 01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:36,049 magazine call now at one eight hundred 1516 01:03:43,269 --> 01:03:39,049 seven two eight two seven three zero or 1517 01:03:45,819 --> 01:03:43,279 visit their website at wwlp.com that's 1518 01:03:47,799 --> 01:03:45,829 one eight hundred seven two eight twenty 1519 01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:47,809 seven thirty what are you waiting for 1520 01:03:53,289 --> 01:03:51,200 your fate awaits as many people know 1521 01:03:55,299 --> 01:03:53,299 ever since President Nixon took us off 1522 01:03:56,769 --> 01:03:55,309 the gold standard the US dollar has been 1523 01:03:58,359 --> 01:03:56,779 evaluating what people don't know 1524 01:04:00,609 --> 01:03:58,369 however is how this directly affects 1525 01:04:02,319 --> 01:04:00,619 your personal finances is there a way to 1526 01:04:04,150 --> 01:04:02,329 protect your portfolios from losing 1527 01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:04,160 value the answer to all of this is gold 1528 01:04:07,690 --> 01:04:05,839 and silver they both have maintained 1529 01:04:10,059 --> 01:04:07,700 their purchasing power for 6,000 years 1530 01:04:11,769 --> 01:04:10,069 if you had 100 thousand dollars in cash 1531 01:04:14,529 --> 01:04:11,779 and a hundred thousand dollars in gold 1532 01:04:16,089 --> 01:04:14,539 and silver back in 1913 and kept them 1533 01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:16,099 until now your cash would have the 1534 01:04:19,150 --> 01:04:17,690 buying power of only four thousand eight 1535 01:04:20,650 --> 01:04:19,160 hundred dollars but your gold and silver 1536 01:04:22,599 --> 01:04:20,660 would have the buying power of three 1537 01:04:24,729 --> 01:04:22,609 million dollars the answer to protecting 1538 01:04:51,549 --> 01:04:24,739 your assets is simple call John Ballman 1539 01:04:53,709 --> 01:04:51,559 today at 1-866-931-6190 to prepare 1540 01:04:56,109 --> 01:04:53,719 ourselves you might have the food/water 1541 01:04:58,329 --> 01:04:56,119 gold and silver but ask yourself are you 1542 01:05:00,549 --> 01:04:58,339 truly prepared that's why you need to 1543 01:05:02,709 --> 01:05:00,559 visit main military.com main 1544 01:05:05,289 --> 01:05:02,719 military.com carries everything you need 1545 01:05:07,099 --> 01:05:05,299 gas masks wool blankets fire starter 1546 01:05:09,140 --> 01:05:07,109 kits high-capacity magazines 1547 01:05:10,460 --> 01:05:09,150 chemical suits military surplus items 1548 01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:10,470 and much more 1549 01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:13,170 do you own a firearm main military comm 1550 01:05:16,819 --> 01:05:14,730 has a large selection of pistols and 1551 01:05:18,710 --> 01:05:16,829 rifles suited for your needs are you 1552 01:05:20,690 --> 01:05:18,720 local store sold out of ammunition 1553 01:05:23,059 --> 01:05:20,700 call or visit them today for prices on 1554 01:05:24,739 --> 01:05:23,069 hard-to-find ammo and bulk ammo orders 1555 01:05:26,180 --> 01:05:24,749 you don't need to worry about having a 1556 01:05:28,940 --> 01:05:26,190 military surplus store in your area 1557 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:28,950 because Maine military.com is the only 1558 01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:30,930 store you'll ever need all from the 1559 01:05:34,700 --> 01:05:32,880 comfort of your computer visit them 1560 01:05:37,609 --> 01:05:34,710 online today at Maine military.com 1561 01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:37,619 that's Maine like the state military 1562 01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:40,410 comm or call them at one eight seven 1563 01:05:46,190 --> 01:05:43,410 seven six zero eight zero one seven nine 1564 01:05:48,559 --> 01:05:46,200 that's one eight seven seven six zero 1565 01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:48,569 eight zero one seven nine 1566 01:05:54,739 --> 01:05:51,210 if you drive for a living you don't get 1567 01:05:57,710 --> 01:05:54,749 paid to stop or wait in line keep your 1568 01:06:00,440 --> 01:05:57,720 wheels moving with pre pass bypass weigh 1569 01:06:03,109 --> 01:06:00,450 stations fly by port of entry facilities 1570 01:06:07,900 --> 01:06:03,119 stay moving at highway speed while the 1571 01:06:11,180 --> 01:06:07,910 guy without free pass weight in large 1572 01:06:15,170 --> 01:06:11,190 save time save money call eight eight 1573 01:06:19,039 --> 01:06:15,180 eight 401 pass to try free pass free 1574 01:06:20,599 --> 01:06:19,049 that's eight eight eight 401 pass hi 1575 01:06:22,130 --> 01:06:20,609 this is Ted Anderson have you ever 1576 01:06:23,809 --> 01:06:22,140 wondered why banks stockbrokers 1577 01:06:25,609 --> 01:06:23,819 investment advisors won't talk about 1578 01:06:27,529 --> 01:06:25,619 gold IRAs they've been available since 1579 01:06:29,239 --> 01:06:27,539 nineteen eighty six yet the financial 1580 01:06:31,009 --> 01:06:29,249 industry won't recognize the value of 1581 01:06:33,229 --> 01:06:31,019 gold for your retirement goal does 1582 01:06:35,089 --> 01:06:33,239 outperform paper investments yet no word 1583 01:07:05,400 --> 01:06:35,099 about IRAs if you would like to have 1584 01:07:10,210 --> 01:07:08,350 we want to hear from you if you have a 1585 01:07:13,630 --> 01:07:10,220 comment or question about the para cast 1586 01:07:16,990 --> 01:07:13,640 sent it to news at the para cast calm 1587 01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:17,000 that's news at the para cast calm and if 1588 01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:19,250 you want to catch up on past episodes we 1589 01:07:23,590 --> 01:07:20,690 have hundreds of shows for you to 1590 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:23,600 download direct from the para cast com 1591 01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:27,770 that's the para cast calm or check us 1592 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:32,930 out on iTunes I will not tell you where 1593 01:07:39,790 --> 01:07:36,890 that laughter came from dang Nick you're 1594 01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:39,800 raining on my pear cast parade here Nick 1595 01:07:46,500 --> 01:07:42,410 Redfern is joining us and when Nick is 1596 01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:46,510 here it's never real or it's real beyond 1597 01:07:51,460 --> 01:07:49,010 reason depending on your point of view 1598 01:07:54,100 --> 01:07:51,470 the book is the real men in black 1599 01:07:56,470 --> 01:07:54,110 speaking of real I'm Jean Steinberg 1600 01:07:58,180 --> 01:07:56,480 ëcause is Chris O'Brien and you're about 1601 01:08:01,870 --> 01:07:58,190 to talk about something that 1602 01:08:04,570 --> 01:08:01,880 precipitated an OCD behavioral pattern 1603 01:08:06,700 --> 01:08:04,580 yes again it's nothing to do with UFOs 1604 01:08:09,970 --> 01:08:06,710 but it does serve as a parallel as to 1605 01:08:11,740 --> 01:08:09,980 how traumatic events can provoke unusual 1606 01:08:13,630 --> 01:08:11,750 behavior and you know and we can apply 1607 01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:13,640 this to the men in black so examples 1608 01:08:17,770 --> 01:08:15,290 when I was at school I went to school 1609 01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:17,780 with a girl who develops anorexia and 1610 01:08:22,180 --> 01:08:20,690 got extremely extremely ill with it and 1611 01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:22,190 basically got like a warning from the 1612 01:08:26,170 --> 01:08:24,050 doctor you know that if you continue on 1613 01:08:27,820 --> 01:08:26,180 this pathway you'll just get your heart 1614 01:08:29,500 --> 01:08:27,830 muscles will be so affected and 1615 01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:29,510 degenerated you know you'll have a heart 1616 01:08:34,900 --> 01:08:31,730 attack of 25 or whatever and die she 1617 01:08:36,340 --> 01:08:34,910 actually got over the anorexia but for I 1618 01:08:38,290 --> 01:08:36,350 can't remember the exact amount of time 1619 01:08:41,910 --> 01:08:38,300 but I do recall it was like six or seven 1620 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:41,920 years literally she had like a phobia of 1621 01:08:46,300 --> 01:08:44,570 exercising or you know anything like 1622 01:08:48,490 --> 01:08:46,310 this where it might put a strain on her 1623 01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:48,500 heart and she had like three or four 1624 01:08:52,210 --> 01:08:50,930 heart checkups at the hospital just to 1625 01:08:53,710 --> 01:08:52,220 make sure that there was nothing wrong 1626 01:08:55,330 --> 01:08:53,720 with her heart and the doctors were like 1627 01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:55,340 well no you under lucky ones it's fine 1628 01:08:59,140 --> 01:08:57,290 six months later she had to go back and 1629 01:09:01,330 --> 01:08:59,150 have another one just make sure and 1630 01:09:03,220 --> 01:09:01,340 another one just to make sure and it was 1631 01:09:05,650 --> 01:09:03,230 kind of a phobia that she'd damaged her 1632 01:09:07,270 --> 01:09:05,660 heart and he came to dominate she 1633 01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:07,280 wouldn't go dancing worried about 1634 01:09:11,170 --> 01:09:09,290 walking running has to keep having it 1635 01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:11,180 checked and I think you know this shows 1636 01:09:16,270 --> 01:09:14,480 how a traumatic event can actually mold 1637 01:09:18,670 --> 01:09:16,280 a person's life and I think 1638 01:09:20,500 --> 01:09:18,680 that is what happened with bender you 1639 01:09:23,590 --> 01:09:20,510 know it was so traumatic whatever it was 1640 01:09:25,510 --> 01:09:23,600 that he had an effect on his entire 1641 01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:25,520 outlook with respect to UFOs he's 1642 01:09:29,470 --> 01:09:27,290 subconscious which may have any bearing 1643 01:09:31,210 --> 01:09:29,480 on how these entities manifested maybe 1644 01:09:32,620 --> 01:09:31,220 and we find that in other witnesses you 1645 01:09:34,180 --> 01:09:32,630 know as I said that twitching the 1646 01:09:36,190 --> 01:09:34,190 curtains worrying that there's a black 1647 01:09:39,010 --> 01:09:36,200 car outside you know it's all sort of 1648 01:09:41,710 --> 01:09:39,020 symptomatic of a similar psychological 1649 01:09:44,140 --> 01:09:41,720 issue issue that has like a an initial 1650 01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:44,150 starting point Nick one of the things 1651 01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:45,650 that we do here at the pair cast as you 1652 01:09:52,210 --> 01:09:49,250 well know is introduce a thread on the 1653 01:09:54,220 --> 01:09:52,220 forms that allows our forum posters to 1654 01:09:56,380 --> 01:09:54,230 pose some questions and before we get 1655 01:09:59,590 --> 01:09:56,390 too far down the pike here in the show 1656 01:10:02,650 --> 01:09:59,600 I'd like to introduce a few questions 1657 01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:02,660 that we've had posted from the forum so 1658 01:10:09,490 --> 01:10:05,570 you know you mentioned this is from 1659 01:10:11,830 --> 01:10:09,500 oceans lost who is a fairly new member 1660 01:10:13,630 --> 01:10:11,840 of the para cast forum and I want to 1661 01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:13,640 change tact a little bit here and go 1662 01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:15,530 back into the history of this and and 1663 01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:17,570 especially in in the British Isles 1664 01:10:21,850 --> 01:10:19,490 my question is Nick have there been any 1665 01:10:23,830 --> 01:10:21,860 reports in England at all 1666 01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:23,840 being English as well I haven't heard of 1667 01:10:29,770 --> 01:10:26,810 any and if there is do the sightings 1668 01:10:31,930 --> 01:10:29,780 happen in the country or city more in 1669 01:10:34,180 --> 01:10:31,940 other words is it a rural or is it an 1670 01:10:36,910 --> 01:10:34,190 urban thing you did mention the Wales 1671 01:10:39,610 --> 01:10:36,920 you know reports from when the 1905 are 1672 01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:39,620 there any other outside of the us cases 1673 01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:42,290 let's say just to kind of cast a broad 1674 01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:44,570 net here where we have fairly 1675 01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:47,450 well-documented reports or people going 1676 01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:49,040 on the record saying that men and black 1677 01:10:53,410 --> 01:10:52,010 have visited them outside of the US oh 1678 01:10:55,330 --> 01:10:53,420 yeah I mean there's a number of 1679 01:10:57,640 --> 01:10:55,340 significant cases you know you can find 1680 01:11:00,160 --> 01:10:57,650 cases from Australia I talked about in 1681 01:11:02,050 --> 01:11:00,170 the book Australia Mexico Puerto Rico 1682 01:11:04,090 --> 01:11:02,060 the US Britain I mean to give you an 1683 01:11:06,220 --> 01:11:04,100 example from Britain you know originally 1684 01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:06,230 where I'm from so you know I know of a 1685 01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:08,570 number of these cases what's interesting 1686 01:11:13,090 --> 01:11:11,210 is that in the u.s. the men in black 1687 01:11:15,550 --> 01:11:13,100 when they appear they often turn up in 1688 01:11:17,290 --> 01:11:15,560 black cars which seem very out of day 1689 01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:17,300 for the period you know they'll turn up 1690 01:11:23,050 --> 01:11:20,810 in what look like brand-new 1960 Chevy's 1691 01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:23,060 or something like that in England they 1692 01:11:28,540 --> 01:11:25,370 turn up in what look like 1960s era 1693 01:11:30,069 --> 01:11:28,550 Jaguars so you know you we have 1694 01:11:32,049 --> 01:11:30,079 this angle as well which is sort of a 1695 01:11:33,700 --> 01:11:32,059 parallel the behavior of the man in 1696 01:11:35,830 --> 01:11:33,710 black for style the way they turn up 1697 01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:35,840 there's one very interesting case that I 1698 01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:38,570 looked into where which actually does 1699 01:11:41,950 --> 01:11:40,250 Porsche at least some of the men in 1700 01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:41,960 black stuff down the government angle 1701 01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:43,610 this is a really interesting case it 1702 01:11:48,669 --> 01:11:46,159 involves a woman named Ann Lehman who I 1703 01:11:52,030 --> 01:11:48,679 interviewed a few years ago and she told 1704 01:11:53,709 --> 01:11:52,040 me how in the in 1962 she was living 1705 01:11:57,580 --> 01:11:53,719 actually in a countryside area a very 1706 01:11:59,890 --> 01:11:57,590 rural area and she'd seen this strange 1707 01:12:02,379 --> 01:11:59,900 light going across the sky actually said 1708 01:12:03,939 --> 01:12:02,389 he came back on several nights but she 1709 01:12:06,129 --> 01:12:03,949 said he wasn't a star you know it was 1710 01:12:08,530 --> 01:12:06,139 moving at speed but it would be flying 1711 01:12:10,629 --> 01:12:08,540 low over the old hills two o'clock in 1712 01:12:13,209 --> 01:12:10,639 the morning and she took a step to 1713 01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:13,219 contact her local air force base and 1714 01:12:16,780 --> 01:12:15,050 said you know Cindy strange thing what 1715 01:12:19,330 --> 01:12:16,790 is it she said that a couple of nights 1716 01:12:20,919 --> 01:12:19,340 later literally at night somebody turned 1717 01:12:23,049 --> 01:12:20,929 up at the front door and she said it was 1718 01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:23,059 a guy in a black suit black hat and 1719 01:12:27,580 --> 01:12:25,130 there's a black car outside and she 1720 01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:27,590 invited him in and he listened carefully 1721 01:12:32,020 --> 01:12:30,409 as he she told this story and the upshot 1722 01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:32,030 was he said well he probably would be a 1723 01:12:35,799 --> 01:12:33,530 good idea if you didn't talk to your 1724 01:12:37,689 --> 01:12:35,809 friends about this and he asked if he 1725 01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:37,699 could take some pencil drawings that 1726 01:12:41,260 --> 01:12:39,530 she'd made of the object at its movement 1727 01:12:42,910 --> 01:12:41,270 since she said sure you know thought it 1728 01:12:45,129 --> 01:12:42,920 was gonna be for being part of the 1729 01:12:47,500 --> 01:12:45,139 investigation and he vanished as 1730 01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:47,510 mysteriously as it appeared she never 1731 01:12:51,879 --> 01:12:49,730 got the drawings back and you know 1732 01:12:54,310 --> 01:12:51,889 confiscation and materials he's often a 1733 01:12:56,620 --> 01:12:54,320 classic aspect of men in black stories 1734 01:12:58,810 --> 01:12:56,630 now this would be just another men in 1735 01:13:00,399 --> 01:12:58,820 black story from this woman and Lehman 1736 01:13:02,350 --> 01:13:00,409 we're it not for the fact that a few 1737 01:13:05,260 --> 01:13:02,360 years ago when the British government 1738 01:13:09,100 --> 01:13:05,270 was declassifying its various UFO FILES 1739 01:13:11,410 --> 01:13:09,110 he Declassified a whole swathe of files 1740 01:13:13,450 --> 01:13:11,420 from the early 1960s and one of the 1741 01:13:15,609 --> 01:13:13,460 files actually dealt with an Lehman's 1742 01:13:17,950 --> 01:13:15,619 experience and there's a report in the 1743 01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:17,960 file written by the man who visited her 1744 01:13:23,140 --> 01:13:20,719 and he's identified as a sergeant JW 1745 01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:23,150 Scott who was attached to the British 1746 01:13:27,129 --> 01:13:25,250 Royal Air Force's provost and security 1747 01:13:28,810 --> 01:13:27,139 services the provost and security 1748 01:13:31,089 --> 01:13:28,820 services are like the British equivalent 1749 01:13:34,060 --> 01:13:31,099 of the US Air Force Office of Special 1750 01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:34,070 Investigations but the PLSS one of their 1751 01:13:38,770 --> 01:13:36,489 official mandates is to do research to 1752 01:13:40,569 --> 01:13:38,780 undertake psychological warfare 1753 01:13:41,979 --> 01:13:40,579 operations counterintelligence 1754 01:13:43,780 --> 01:13:41,989 operations 1755 01:13:45,459 --> 01:13:43,790 the sort of very type of people you 1756 01:13:47,950 --> 01:13:45,469 would expect to go out on these missions 1757 01:13:50,440 --> 01:13:47,960 the fact that this guy appeared in a 1758 01:13:52,959 --> 01:13:50,450 black car dressed as a man in black not 1759 01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:52,969 in military uniform does make me think 1760 01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:55,010 that this is an example of where 1761 01:13:59,920 --> 01:13:57,410 government personnel may actually have 1762 01:14:02,110 --> 01:13:59,930 almost sort of camouflage themselves as 1763 01:14:03,940 --> 01:14:02,120 the weirder men in black to cover their 1764 01:14:06,130 --> 01:14:03,950 tracks and they would have covered their 1765 01:14:08,620 --> 01:14:06,140 tracks had this file not quietly 1766 01:14:10,930 --> 01:14:08,630 surfaced at the London National Archives 1767 01:14:12,729 --> 01:14:10,940 a few years ago fully confirming 1768 01:14:15,220 --> 01:14:12,739 everything that and said about getting 1769 01:14:16,870 --> 01:14:15,230 the visit and materials being taken from 1770 01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:16,880 her are not returned yeah I have a 1771 01:14:22,060 --> 01:14:18,650 question here from one of our moderators 1772 01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:22,070 at the forum dr. Peric ascom Ron Collins 1773 01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:23,690 and he brings up a very interesting 1774 01:14:28,150 --> 01:14:25,850 question which i think is quite 1775 01:14:30,700 --> 01:14:28,160 insightful I often hear that they wear 1776 01:14:33,250 --> 01:14:30,710 nondescript clothing thus the MIB 1777 01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:33,260 moniker but have they ever been seen to 1778 01:14:38,190 --> 01:14:35,690 carry equipment wear watches talk on 1779 01:14:40,990 --> 01:14:38,200 phones or utilized technology in any way 1780 01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:41,000 very good point for the most part they 1781 01:14:43,660 --> 01:14:42,530 don't you know you would imagine if 1782 01:14:45,850 --> 01:14:43,670 these were government people 1783 01:14:48,610 --> 01:14:45,860 particularly in today's technology and 1784 01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:48,620 we get reports up to the present day you 1785 01:14:52,390 --> 01:14:50,330 know they would be turning up with tape 1786 01:14:54,250 --> 01:14:52,400 recorders even in the seventies you know 1787 01:14:55,750 --> 01:14:54,260 sort of the early chunky bigger tape 1788 01:14:58,080 --> 01:14:55,760 recorders no they didn't have anything 1789 01:15:01,000 --> 01:14:58,090 like that it was almost just a case of 1790 01:15:04,090 --> 01:15:01,010 turning up asking a lot of weird 1791 01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:04,100 questions but not chronicling anything 1792 01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:06,890 either by audio equipment or you know 1793 01:15:10,750 --> 01:15:09,050 writing it down quickly in shorthand or 1794 01:15:12,790 --> 01:15:10,760 whatever it's just a case of almost 1795 01:15:15,070 --> 01:15:12,800 sitting there listening and thank you 1796 01:15:17,620 --> 01:15:15,080 very much and leaving it's almost as if 1797 01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:17,630 you know the interview is actually like 1798 01:15:22,900 --> 01:15:20,450 a stage for something else it's like the 1799 01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:22,910 the reason for the visit as I you know 1800 01:15:26,650 --> 01:15:25,040 I've speculated in the book when we get 1801 01:15:30,310 --> 01:15:26,660 into the issue of things like tol pers 1802 01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:30,320 and stuff like that vampire is inviting 1803 01:15:36,340 --> 01:15:32,930 them in okay we'll get into the vampire 1804 01:15:38,620 --> 01:15:36,350 realm like true love it's too early 1805 01:15:41,830 --> 01:15:38,630 NIC Redferns the guest the book is the 1806 01:15:43,570 --> 01:15:41,840 real men in black are they vampires your 1807 01:15:51,460 --> 01:15:43,580 co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene 1808 01:15:57,919 --> 01:15:54,729 [Music] 1809 01:16:00,379 --> 01:15:57,929 Ray Perkins a reclusive veteran burned 1810 01:16:02,349 --> 01:16:00,389 out from the Gulf War lives tortured by 1811 01:16:04,609 --> 01:16:02,359 relentless perplexing nightmares 1812 01:16:06,529 --> 01:16:04,619 nightmares of a horrific battle in deep 1813 01:16:08,419 --> 01:16:06,539 space and of a mysterious woman's 1814 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01:19:52,260 --> 01:19:48,000 best you can buy 1898 01:19:53,370 --> 01:19:52,270 are you tired of searching for great 1899 01:19:56,910 --> 01:19:53,380 talk-radio 1900 01:20:04,500 --> 01:19:56,920 the more important search the overall we 1901 01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:04,510 are the gcn radio network this is Leslie 1902 01:20:08,609 --> 01:20:06,250 Kane and I'm with the Coalition for 1903 01:20:12,149 --> 01:20:08,619 Freedom of Information and you are 1904 01:20:16,109 --> 01:20:12,159 listening to the podcast we're going to 1905 01:20:19,020 --> 01:20:16,119 record Knicks laughter devilish laughter 1906 01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:19,030 there Nick Redfern is the author co-host 1907 01:20:23,189 --> 01:20:21,010 is Chris O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg or 1908 01:20:25,109 --> 01:20:23,199 in the power cast the real men in black 1909 01:20:27,810 --> 01:20:25,119 is the book we're answering your 1910 01:20:30,209 --> 01:20:27,820 questions and you raise this question 1911 01:20:33,510 --> 01:20:30,219 okay the men in black we invite them 1912 01:20:39,060 --> 01:20:33,520 into their homes manifestations of some 1913 01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:39,070 kind of evil force this gets into sort 1914 01:20:44,040 --> 01:20:41,050 of really controversial areas but the 1915 01:20:45,750 --> 01:20:44,050 way I look at it you know controversy or 1916 01:20:48,359 --> 01:20:45,760 so what you know there's no point 1917 01:20:50,570 --> 01:20:48,369 playing it safe when the facts suggest 1918 01:20:54,270 --> 01:20:50,580 we shouldn't play it safe you know and 1919 01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:54,280 the man in black mystery does dictate by 1920 01:20:59,370 --> 01:20:56,650 the very way it acts that we go down 1921 01:21:01,950 --> 01:20:59,380 some weird pathways and one of these is 1922 01:21:03,209 --> 01:21:01,960 that sort of relevant to the Tulpa the 1923 01:21:04,919 --> 01:21:03,219 phenomena of the toll but this is an 1924 01:21:07,140 --> 01:21:04,929 area that deeply interests me 1925 01:21:09,300 --> 01:21:07,150 essentially Tulpas are what you might 1926 01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:09,310 call in simple terms constructed life 1927 01:21:12,629 --> 01:21:11,770 forms constructed or born out of the 1928 01:21:15,990 --> 01:21:12,639 human mind 1929 01:21:18,689 --> 01:21:16,000 you know the idea the intense focus on 1930 01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:18,699 one particular issue or imagery in the 1931 01:21:22,830 --> 01:21:20,770 human mind can almost or literally 1932 01:21:24,510 --> 01:21:22,840 externalize it you know kind of we give 1933 01:21:26,490 --> 01:21:24,520 birth to like a mind monster or 1934 01:21:29,070 --> 01:21:26,500 something like that that can have some 1935 01:21:31,470 --> 01:21:29,080 sort of semblance outside of the mind 1936 01:21:34,709 --> 01:21:31,480 like a quasi reality in the real world 1937 01:21:37,229 --> 01:21:34,719 and that it sustains itself via feeding 1938 01:21:40,169 --> 01:21:37,239 on high emotional states you know we 1939 01:21:43,649 --> 01:21:40,179 feed on food Wars or whatever they feed 1940 01:21:47,550 --> 01:21:43,659 on bleeding dry human emotion and it is 1941 01:21:49,379 --> 01:21:47,560 a fact that many MIB witnesses have said 1942 01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:49,389 that you know when they invite these 1943 01:21:54,270 --> 01:21:51,570 weird-looking characters into their home 1944 01:21:56,430 --> 01:21:54,280 afterwards they feel totally drained of 1945 01:21:57,959 --> 01:21:56,440 energy you know like zapped just need to 1946 01:21:59,760 --> 01:21:57,969 sleep and that was one of the facets of 1947 01:22:01,590 --> 01:21:59,770 our what bender story you know he would 1948 01:22:05,430 --> 01:22:01,600 just be wiped out during and after the 1949 01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:05,440 experience is given or a source of the 1950 01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:08,170 vampire legends in our society oh yeah I 1951 01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:09,730 mean this is something I speculate in 1952 01:22:14,340 --> 01:22:11,410 the book because if you look at vampire 1953 01:22:16,350 --> 01:22:14,350 folklore one of the traditions or one of 1954 01:22:18,450 --> 01:22:16,360 the beliefs was that before the vampire 1955 01:22:20,610 --> 01:22:18,460 can come in your home it has to be 1956 01:22:22,110 --> 01:22:20,620 invited that's something we find with a 1957 01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:22,120 man in black reports you know they 1958 01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:24,490 actually don't you know turn up and 1959 01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:26,050 force their way into your house as 1960 01:22:29,460 --> 01:22:28,090 people might assume if they're sort of 1961 01:22:32,970 --> 01:22:29,470 there to threaten you they just kind of 1962 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:32,980 patiently almost enigmatic aliy stand on 1963 01:22:38,130 --> 01:22:35,530 the doorstep waiting to be invited in 1964 01:22:40,140 --> 01:22:38,140 and then when they are invited in you 1965 01:22:42,060 --> 01:22:40,150 know the it seems they start to ask 1966 01:22:44,610 --> 01:22:42,070 questions which are threatening and 1967 01:22:47,820 --> 01:22:44,620 intimidating and actually often get the 1968 01:22:49,860 --> 01:22:47,830 witness into a deep state of fear but 1969 01:22:52,980 --> 01:22:49,870 what's weird is that sometimes the case 1970 01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:52,990 is the being cancer the person had 1971 01:22:56,940 --> 01:22:54,730 there's nothing special about it 1972 01:22:59,250 --> 01:22:56,950 sometimes they are there even been 1973 01:23:01,890 --> 01:22:59,260 people who have been visited by the MIB 1974 01:23:03,870 --> 01:23:01,900 whose UFO encounter was just a weird 1975 01:23:05,310 --> 01:23:03,880 life flashing across the sky who they 1976 01:23:07,950 --> 01:23:05,320 might have happened to tell a few people 1977 01:23:10,140 --> 01:23:07,960 about nothing sinister or spectacular 1978 01:23:12,660 --> 01:23:10,150 about it Nick there's even cases where 1979 01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:12,670 people literally are finishing up a 1980 01:23:16,500 --> 01:23:14,890 sighting they go inside the house and 1981 01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:16,510 there's a man in black there so I mean 1982 01:23:22,070 --> 01:23:19,330 you have yeah both scenarios going on 1983 01:23:24,440 --> 01:23:22,080 and let's not forget the bender and keel 1984 01:23:26,820 --> 01:23:24,450 claims that these men in black 1985 01:23:28,860 --> 01:23:26,830 manifested within their their personal 1986 01:23:31,440 --> 01:23:28,870 space in their house without being 1987 01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:31,450 invited so we have both both sides of 1988 01:23:35,250 --> 01:23:33,130 the equation going on yeah we definitely 1989 01:23:38,130 --> 01:23:35,260 do and I think you know it's important 1990 01:23:40,740 --> 01:23:38,140 to note that fear the inducements of 1991 01:23:43,070 --> 01:23:40,750 fear although from you know provoking 1992 01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:43,080 fear seems to be a central point of the 1993 01:23:48,690 --> 01:23:45,970 encounter now some people have naturally 1994 01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:48,700 assumed that the fear angle is just 1995 01:23:51,420 --> 01:23:50,050 because the person's worried they've 1996 01:23:52,830 --> 01:23:51,430 been visited by the government and 1997 01:23:56,610 --> 01:23:52,840 they're getting to get into big trouble 1998 01:23:59,460 --> 01:23:56,620 but it seems that investigating the 1999 01:24:02,790 --> 01:23:59,470 encounter and wanting the witness to 2000 01:24:04,470 --> 01:24:02,800 stay silent is almost like a ruse it's 2001 01:24:07,170 --> 01:24:04,480 almost as if they provoked the fear 2002 01:24:09,660 --> 01:24:07,180 because that's the intent of the visit 2003 01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:09,670 is to put the person in a state of fear 2004 01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:11,890 then you know we could argue well is 2005 01:24:15,210 --> 01:24:14,170 that then evidence that this some of 2006 01:24:18,450 --> 01:24:15,220 these things could be told 2007 01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:18,460 the idea that they feed on that fear now 2008 01:24:23,550 --> 01:24:21,130 it is a fact also that if you look at 2009 01:24:25,830 --> 01:24:23,560 the stories of these MIB if they are 2010 01:24:27,030 --> 01:24:25,840 stalkers they do fit the pattern they 2011 01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:27,040 don't seem like flesh-and-blood 2012 01:24:32,580 --> 01:24:29,890 creatures they seem to be very ill 2013 01:24:35,700 --> 01:24:32,590 informed about customs and and ways of 2014 01:24:38,370 --> 01:24:35,710 life etc they get confused they run out 2015 01:24:40,650 --> 01:24:38,380 of temporary life forms temporary life 2016 01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:40,660 forms yeah almost as if you know they're 2017 01:24:46,530 --> 01:24:44,410 it's kind of like a computer program you 2018 01:24:48,060 --> 01:24:46,540 know you run the program and then when 2019 01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:48,070 the program is finished it shuts down 2020 01:24:51,660 --> 01:24:49,930 that's what they seem to be like you 2021 01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:51,670 know that they're sent out to perform 2022 01:24:55,440 --> 01:24:53,770 one particular task they have a 2023 01:24:57,450 --> 01:24:55,450 rudimentary understanding of what 2024 01:25:01,170 --> 01:24:57,460 they're doing and who they are but 2025 01:25:04,020 --> 01:25:01,180 they're they're also temporary and there 2026 01:25:09,750 --> 01:25:04,030 were no social graces we have no social 2027 01:25:13,050 --> 01:25:09,760 graces you didn't mention the the Happy 2028 01:25:15,150 --> 01:25:13,060 Camp case if memory serves me correct 2029 01:25:17,340 --> 01:25:15,160 here but Jacques Vallee I think in 2030 01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:17,350 confrontations mentioned men and black 2031 01:25:23,010 --> 01:25:20,410 that attempted to eat jello with a fork 2032 01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:23,020 like they'd never seen jello before I I 2033 01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:25,330 seem to remember that I I'm not sure if 2034 01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:27,370 my attribution is correct but you mean 2035 01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:30,690 you don't eat it with a fork she's made 2036 01:25:34,050 --> 01:25:31,930 well 2037 01:25:37,530 --> 01:25:34,060 what I'm bringing up here Jeana neck is 2038 01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:37,540 is the the absurdity of some of these 2039 01:25:43,500 --> 01:25:40,090 encounters they they tend to be dressed 2040 01:25:45,780 --> 01:25:43,510 wrong for the weather they tend to 2041 01:25:48,480 --> 01:25:45,790 really not seem to have a total grip on 2042 01:25:51,390 --> 01:25:48,490 their place in reality which is what 2043 01:25:54,270 --> 01:25:51,400 nick is describing here what what about 2044 01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:54,280 that is a clue for us here in Eklund 2045 01:25:59,640 --> 01:25:55,930 we're looking at this subject well yeah 2046 01:26:02,250 --> 01:25:59,650 I think the clue is it's B for me I've 2047 01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:02,260 come to the realization I really do 2048 01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:05,170 believe this that the threat action of 2049 01:26:10,590 --> 01:26:07,330 the threat to the witness is actually a 2050 01:26:13,710 --> 01:26:10,600 ruse and that the threat is to provoke a 2051 01:26:15,210 --> 01:26:13,720 high emotional state and I really do 2052 01:26:17,130 --> 01:26:15,220 believe that some of these things are 2053 01:26:18,330 --> 01:26:17,140 toca like you know whatever literally 2054 01:26:20,460 --> 01:26:18,340 told bizarre there's some sort of 2055 01:26:22,110 --> 01:26:20,470 phenomena we don't fully understand but 2056 01:26:24,500 --> 01:26:22,120 they do well why don't you define 2057 01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:24,510 tolbert it's a Tibetan term number 2058 01:26:29,270 --> 01:26:27,449 for some of our new listeners I mean the 2059 01:26:30,979 --> 01:26:29,280 whole concept of a Tulpa is not well 2060 01:26:33,020 --> 01:26:30,989 known in the Western world why don't you 2061 01:26:34,220 --> 01:26:33,030 give us a quick thumbnail cliffnotes 2062 01:26:36,259 --> 01:26:34,230 version of that 2063 01:26:38,270 --> 01:26:36,269 well basically you quite rightly point 2064 01:26:42,319 --> 01:26:38,280 out you know it's sort of tibetan term a 2065 01:26:44,089 --> 01:26:42,329 Tulpa you imagine you know let's say for 2066 01:26:47,089 --> 01:26:44,099 example you focus on an image in your 2067 01:26:49,549 --> 01:26:47,099 mind of let's say a huge wolf with 2068 01:26:51,799 --> 01:26:49,559 glowing red eyes and you focus on that 2069 01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:51,809 image for days and weeks and you sort of 2070 01:26:56,359 --> 01:26:54,570 nurture it and you know you you 2071 01:27:00,229 --> 01:26:56,369 construct the image of it how its fur 2072 01:27:03,169 --> 01:27:00,239 looks how it feels etc etc and you focus 2073 01:27:06,470 --> 01:27:03,179 on projecting this image externally out 2074 01:27:09,109 --> 01:27:06,480 of your mind and then two week later the 2075 01:27:11,089 --> 01:27:09,119 local newspaper reports on somebody's 2076 01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:11,099 seen in the nearby woods a huge wolf 2077 01:27:15,109 --> 01:27:13,050 with glowing red eyes you know it's the 2078 01:27:19,180 --> 01:27:15,119 idea that you've created something out 2079 01:27:21,500 --> 01:27:19,190 of your imagination through deep intense 2080 01:27:24,890 --> 01:27:21,510 motivation if you like and then you've 2081 01:27:28,459 --> 01:27:24,900 externalized it and more importantly 2082 01:27:30,020 --> 01:27:28,469 when the Tulpa exists or is released if 2083 01:27:32,470 --> 01:27:30,030 you like or unleashed into the real 2084 01:27:36,350 --> 01:27:32,480 world it has some semblance of 2085 01:27:39,859 --> 01:27:36,360 independent reality but it can be 2086 01:27:41,629 --> 01:27:39,869 reabsorbed by the creator or if he gains 2087 01:27:44,689 --> 01:27:41,639 enough strength itself he can have a 2088 01:27:47,660 --> 01:27:44,699 stronger and deeper grip on reality and 2089 01:27:50,930 --> 01:27:47,670 to do so it sort of bleeds and feeds 2090 01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:50,940 upon human emotion or in high states of 2091 01:27:55,549 --> 01:27:52,650 emotion particularly so in other words 2092 01:27:57,020 --> 01:27:55,559 it may be that these entities all these 2093 01:27:58,399 --> 01:27:57,030 weird entities that we never catch 2094 01:28:00,589 --> 01:27:58,409 whether it's Bigfoot 2095 01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:00,599 men in black whatever the reason their 2096 01:28:06,799 --> 01:28:04,050 scene isn't accidental they they need to 2097 01:28:09,500 --> 01:28:06,809 be seen so they can feed you know it's 2098 01:28:11,770 --> 01:28:09,510 like maybe Bigfoot doesn't exist until 2099 01:28:14,689 --> 01:28:11,780 it needs to feed again and then he 2100 01:28:16,310 --> 01:28:14,699 ensures that somebody sees it that 2101 01:28:18,890 --> 01:28:16,320 person gets into a huge state of 2102 01:28:21,470 --> 01:28:18,900 excitement or fear it bleeds the witness 2103 01:28:23,959 --> 01:28:21,480 dry and then he vanishes just leaving a 2104 01:28:26,450 --> 01:28:23,969 few weird footprints that seem to 2105 01:28:28,490 --> 01:28:26,460 suggest a physical reality but that we 2106 01:28:30,350 --> 01:28:28,500 never ever catch them you know it could 2107 01:28:32,169 --> 01:28:30,360 be the same with the men in black the 2108 01:28:34,759 --> 01:28:32,179 reason we never find them is because 2109 01:28:36,890 --> 01:28:34,769 they only turn off when they need to 2110 01:28:38,189 --> 01:28:36,900 feed and then you know they're back in 2111 01:28:40,529 --> 01:28:38,199 their ethereal 2112 01:28:44,459 --> 01:28:40,539 see whatever it may be well you brought 2113 01:28:46,500 --> 01:28:44,469 up a really good alleged example of this 2114 01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:46,510 in your book which which I also brought 2115 01:28:51,299 --> 01:28:48,489 up in my book stalking the tricksters 2116 01:28:55,290 --> 01:28:51,309 and that was the journey of Alexander 2117 01:28:57,660 --> 01:28:55,300 David Neil to Tibet and in her training 2118 01:28:59,640 --> 01:28:57,670 and how to actually manifest a Tulpa in 2119 01:29:01,799 --> 01:28:59,650 in her claim that she actually was able 2120 01:29:05,669 --> 01:29:01,809 to do this why don't you describe the 2121 01:29:08,489 --> 01:29:05,679 the process that she had to undergo to 2122 01:29:11,100 --> 01:29:08,499 get rid of this Tulpa which I find very 2123 01:29:12,660 --> 01:29:11,110 fascinating because she created 2124 01:29:14,969 --> 01:29:12,670 something that she didn't really have 2125 01:29:17,189 --> 01:29:14,979 the ability to deal with according to 2126 01:29:20,250 --> 01:29:17,199 her we'll get into that in a segment 2127 01:29:23,219 --> 01:29:20,260 which is how to get rid of an invading 2128 01:29:24,540 --> 01:29:23,229 MIB or a mysterious creature frightening 2129 01:29:26,790 --> 01:29:24,550 being whatever I'm glad they don't 2130 01:29:29,100 --> 01:29:26,800 happen tulta a Tulpa 2131 01:29:35,969 --> 01:29:29,110 yes I'm way it doesn't happen to me 2132 01:29:37,799 --> 01:29:35,979 really glad I'm not going Jean Oh Nick 2133 01:29:40,529 --> 01:29:37,809 Redfern is the guest the book is the 2134 01:29:43,049 --> 01:29:40,539 real men in black I'm Jean Steinberg the 2135 01:29:45,090 --> 01:29:43,059 host is Chris O'Brien you're in the 2136 01:29:52,540 --> 01:29:45,100 Barrett cast 2137 01:29:57,129 --> 01:29:54,929 [Music] 2138 01:29:59,229 --> 01:29:57,139 graphic converter is the image 2139 01:30:01,899 --> 01:29:59,239 manipulation tool for the rest of us it 2140 01:30:03,850 --> 01:30:01,909 does not use any database you get full 2141 01:30:06,069 --> 01:30:03,860 control of all your files want to view 2142 01:30:08,350 --> 01:30:06,079 the images of a folder drag it into 2143 01:30:10,839 --> 01:30:08,360 graphic converter and a powerful browser 2144 01:30:12,729 --> 01:30:10,849 opens up to show your image files you 2145 01:30:14,830 --> 01:30:12,739 could 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eight six three six five three or order 2242 01:33:51,990 --> 01:33:47,980 online at Gober Keep Calm that's Gober 2243 01:33:54,030 --> 01:33:52,000 Keep Calm today the gzn Radio Network 2244 01:33:57,600 --> 01:33:54,040 providing the world with hard-hitting 2245 01:34:03,390 --> 01:33:57,610 talk radio g-c 2246 01:34:06,120 --> 01:34:03,400 great talk radio starts ear did you 2247 01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:06,130 Mosley gathers or a sausage smear and 2248 01:34:11,430 --> 01:34:08,530 I'm here to say has been word or two 2249 01:34:14,370 --> 01:34:11,440 about the para cast which I believe is 2250 01:34:22,740 --> 01:34:14,380 the gold standard the paranormal radio 2251 01:34:24,689 --> 01:34:22,750 listen to it if you can for a second 2252 01:34:27,780 --> 01:34:24,699 there I thought Nick Redfern was going 2253 01:34:31,020 --> 01:34:27,790 to give us the famous laugh from the 2254 01:34:36,180 --> 01:34:31,030 shadow remember who knows what evil 2255 01:34:40,590 --> 01:34:36,190 lurks in the heart of men the shadow 2256 01:34:43,740 --> 01:34:40,600 knows oh well actually I think Baldwin 2257 01:34:45,540 --> 01:34:43,750 did a really good shadow laugh in that 2258 01:34:48,570 --> 01:34:45,550 movie which was otherwise a failure 2259 01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:48,580 we're talking about a reality here the 2260 01:34:52,709 --> 01:34:51,130 real men in black by Nick Redfern the 2261 01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:52,719 co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene 2262 01:34:58,200 --> 01:34:55,690 Steinberg we were exploring a question 2263 01:35:00,209 --> 01:34:58,210 from Chris and you were about to deliver 2264 01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:00,219 your answer Nick when I rudely 2265 01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:02,170 interrupted you sorry about that 2266 01:35:06,649 --> 01:35:03,850 that's all right I'll just send the men 2267 01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:06,659 in black around I think he already has 2268 01:35:11,220 --> 01:35:08,650 well yeah we're talking about 2269 01:35:13,590 --> 01:35:11,230 Alexandra David Neil she was born in 2270 01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:13,600 1868 he was actually the first woman 2271 01:35:18,209 --> 01:35:15,730 ever to be granted the title of a Lama 2272 01:35:20,550 --> 01:35:18,219 in Tibet and she actually lived for a 2273 01:35:23,100 --> 01:35:20,560 hundred years so I guess you know dig 2274 01:35:25,140 --> 01:35:23,110 you to topaz it wasn't too bad for in 2275 01:35:27,060 --> 01:35:25,150 the long term she was traveled she 2276 01:35:29,580 --> 01:35:27,070 traveled wildly all across the Himalayas 2277 01:35:31,979 --> 01:35:29,590 and in 1932 she wrote a book called 2278 01:35:34,620 --> 01:35:31,989 magic and mystery in Tibet this sort of 2279 01:35:37,229 --> 01:35:34,630 really opens us up to some of the work 2280 01:35:40,560 --> 01:35:37,239 that Alexandra David Neil got involved 2281 01:35:42,840 --> 01:35:40,570 in and she became acquainted with the 2282 01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:42,850 the phenomena of the Tulpa purely from 2283 01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:45,130 you know hanging out in the Himalayas in 2284 01:35:49,290 --> 01:35:47,650 Tibet and understanding the nature of 2285 01:35:51,419 --> 01:35:49,300 what it was to create one of these 2286 01:35:53,550 --> 01:35:51,429 things so she had a go at doing it and 2287 01:35:56,310 --> 01:35:53,560 what she said she actually did was to 2288 01:35:58,290 --> 01:35:56,320 try to create all she visualized in her 2289 01:36:01,109 --> 01:35:58,300 mind the image of like a friendly 2290 01:36:02,879 --> 01:36:01,119 looking overweight monk not unlike the 2291 01:36:04,890 --> 01:36:02,889 sort of Friar Tuck character in the 2292 01:36:07,740 --> 01:36:04,900 Robin Hood films you know it's Hollywood 2293 01:36:09,959 --> 01:36:07,750 portrays Friar Tuck and she said that it 2294 01:36:11,580 --> 01:36:09,969 was a lengthy time-consuming actually 2295 01:36:14,940 --> 01:36:11,590 draining process 2296 01:36:17,910 --> 01:36:14,950 I create this image in her mind with a 2297 01:36:20,460 --> 01:36:17,920 view to externalizing it but she said 2298 01:36:23,790 --> 01:36:20,470 eventually she would see what looked 2299 01:36:25,500 --> 01:36:23,800 like this sort of jolly fat monk and you 2300 01:36:27,210 --> 01:36:25,510 know peripheral vision you know she 2301 01:36:28,860 --> 01:36:27,220 would look look up or whatever from 2302 01:36:30,330 --> 01:36:28,870 reading and the biggest shadow in the 2303 01:36:32,850 --> 01:36:30,340 corner of her eye and then it would 2304 01:36:34,350 --> 01:36:32,860 vanish in a second but over time it 2305 01:36:35,730 --> 01:36:34,360 would hang around for five seconds then 2306 01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:35,740 10:00 and it would become more 2307 01:36:40,620 --> 01:36:38,290 substantial over time as if it was 2308 01:36:42,750 --> 01:36:40,630 gaining strength and and gaining reality 2309 01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:42,760 what she said then happened was it 2310 01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:44,890 became more ominous that this sort of 2311 01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:47,290 it's jolly character became sly and 2312 01:36:52,110 --> 01:36:49,690 malevolent it's overweight form became 2313 01:36:55,470 --> 01:36:52,120 sort of lean and muscular and powerful 2314 01:36:57,030 --> 01:36:55,480 and she felt that it was escaping from 2315 01:36:59,400 --> 01:36:57,040 the confines of her mind 2316 01:37:01,770 --> 01:36:59,410 and getting out of her control and 2317 01:37:04,110 --> 01:37:01,780 actually becoming malevolent and 2318 01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:04,120 resentful of her possibly due to the 2319 01:37:08,430 --> 01:37:06,610 fact that she created it and the creator 2320 01:37:11,820 --> 01:37:08,440 does have the ability if they know how 2321 01:37:14,310 --> 01:37:11,830 to to reabsorb the Tulpa and of course 2322 01:37:16,500 --> 01:37:14,320 the Tulpa people accept this sort of 2323 01:37:18,780 --> 01:37:16,510 phenomena the last thing it was is to be 2324 01:37:20,820 --> 01:37:18,790 reabsorbed and she said she had like a 2325 01:37:23,250 --> 01:37:20,830 tremendous battle to actually succeed in 2326 01:37:25,020 --> 01:37:23,260 reabsorbing it was sort of as she said 2327 01:37:27,030 --> 01:37:25,030 it in her own words it had become 2328 01:37:28,590 --> 01:37:27,040 tenacious for life and didn't want to 2329 01:37:30,990 --> 01:37:28,600 give it up you know if some of these 2330 01:37:32,940 --> 01:37:31,000 things do become tenacious for life and 2331 01:37:35,340 --> 01:37:32,950 they don't give it up and then they 2332 01:37:37,860 --> 01:37:35,350 start you know existing in our world out 2333 01:37:40,260 --> 01:37:37,870 of our control that may will explain why 2334 01:37:42,870 --> 01:37:40,270 people have these weird experiences of 2335 01:37:44,970 --> 01:37:42,880 fear inducing entities turning up 2336 01:37:46,950 --> 01:37:44,980 exhausting the person and bleeding them 2337 01:37:48,810 --> 01:37:46,960 dry and then saying thank you very much 2338 01:37:51,450 --> 01:37:48,820 and vanishing as mysterious ease that 2339 01:37:53,550 --> 01:37:51,460 they came it may be the equivalent of us 2340 01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:53,560 going out to a restaurant you know that 2341 01:37:57,360 --> 01:37:55,330 sounds crazy but it may be that 2342 01:37:59,550 --> 01:37:57,370 equivalence of you know an emergency 2343 01:38:01,560 --> 01:37:59,560 sugar fix for a diabetic when you know 2344 01:38:03,690 --> 01:38:01,570 energy runs low and it's time to feed 2345 01:38:06,930 --> 01:38:03,700 again we have another question here from 2346 01:38:09,930 --> 01:38:06,940 one of our longtime forum posters Mike 2347 01:38:12,480 --> 01:38:09,940 who is considered a paranormal master on 2348 01:38:15,180 --> 01:38:12,490 the forum Nick I really enjoyed your 2349 01:38:17,250 --> 01:38:15,190 recent stint on Dream Land and wonder if 2350 01:38:19,530 --> 01:38:17,260 you would care to further elaborate on 2351 01:38:21,840 --> 01:38:19,540 what you think of what we call death 2352 01:38:23,430 --> 01:38:21,850 in how that may or may not have 2353 01:38:26,070 --> 01:38:23,440 something to do with the phenomenon I 2354 01:38:28,260 --> 01:38:26,080 get this this feeling here you know 2355 01:38:30,900 --> 01:38:28,270 you're talking about you know the color 2356 01:38:33,090 --> 01:38:30,910 black and and people being in a place of 2357 01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:33,100 fear do you think death has something to 2358 01:38:37,490 --> 01:38:35,650 do with this are there any cases where 2359 01:38:40,980 --> 01:38:37,500 we have men and black showing up as 2360 01:38:43,440 --> 01:38:40,990 portents for disasters or death 2361 01:38:45,780 --> 01:38:43,450 obviously the Mothman Prophecies in the 2362 01:38:47,940 --> 01:38:45,790 collapse of the Silver Bridge would be 2363 01:38:50,670 --> 01:38:47,950 you know in Christmas Eve I think what 2364 01:38:52,920 --> 01:38:50,680 66 would be a classic illustration of 2365 01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:52,930 this do we have any other sort of 2366 01:38:59,790 --> 01:38:55,690 portent type men in black encounters 2367 01:39:01,710 --> 01:38:59,800 well I mean there are reports you know 2368 01:39:04,770 --> 01:39:01,720 where the men in black certainly offer 2369 01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:04,780 threats of death but you know in terms 2370 01:39:10,410 --> 01:39:07,930 of actually being like a precursor to it 2371 01:39:12,630 --> 01:39:10,420 I actually do think the best example we 2372 01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:12,640 have is the Silver Bridge in conjunction 2373 01:39:15,690 --> 01:39:14,530 with the Mothman stories about the 2374 01:39:18,090 --> 01:39:15,700 Mothman and the man in black were 2375 01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:18,100 running around Point Pleasant from sort 2376 01:39:23,490 --> 01:39:21,970 of 65 to 67 and at the height of all 2377 01:39:25,230 --> 01:39:23,500 this activity you have the collapse of 2378 01:39:28,170 --> 01:39:25,240 the bridge the Silver Bridge in the town 2379 01:39:30,930 --> 01:39:28,180 and the deaths of dozens of people now 2380 01:39:32,610 --> 01:39:30,940 you know to what extent this means the 2381 01:39:35,430 --> 01:39:32,620 men in black have some sort of tying 2382 01:39:37,500 --> 01:39:35,440 with death or the afterlife or whatever 2383 01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:37,510 yeah that's difficult to say what I 2384 01:39:40,830 --> 01:39:38,890 would say is that one of the people I 2385 01:39:43,260 --> 01:39:40,840 interviewed for the book extensively was 2386 01:39:45,750 --> 01:39:43,270 a man named Ray vache who's both an 2387 01:39:48,030 --> 01:39:45,760 Anglican priest and a former mufon state 2388 01:39:50,940 --> 01:39:48,040 director for the state of Nebraska yeah 2389 01:39:56,190 --> 01:39:50,950 major source for your book final events 2390 01:39:59,970 --> 01:39:56,200 I well yeah and Ray told me how he knew 2391 01:40:01,500 --> 01:39:59,980 Barker and he actually met bender and he 2392 01:40:03,870 --> 01:40:01,510 stood deeply into the men in black 2393 01:40:05,460 --> 01:40:03,880 history and he believes you know based 2394 01:40:07,980 --> 01:40:05,470 around his sort of Christian belief 2395 01:40:11,070 --> 01:40:07,990 systems this the men in black some of 2396 01:40:13,770 --> 01:40:11,080 them are sort of paranormal occult or 2397 01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:13,780 possibly even demonic entities that sort 2398 01:40:20,460 --> 01:40:17,530 of masquerade as the MIB as a means to 2399 01:40:23,210 --> 01:40:20,470 get their grips into I guess susceptible 2400 01:40:27,780 --> 01:40:23,220 people like and and you know further 2401 01:40:29,850 --> 01:40:27,790 open the human races you know to a 2402 01:40:32,190 --> 01:40:29,860 negative occult world if you like to 2403 01:40:33,830 --> 01:40:32,200 sort of lure a scene with a you know 2404 01:40:36,120 --> 01:40:33,840 like a dangling 2405 01:40:38,430 --> 01:40:36,130 manifesting as UFOs and something 2406 01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:38,440 exciting and then which did happen we've 2407 01:40:42,330 --> 01:40:40,090 been you know he got in all excited and 2408 01:40:44,790 --> 01:40:42,340 then it became holy negative just 2409 01:40:47,550 --> 01:40:44,800 dominated by bad luck and ill health so 2410 01:40:49,530 --> 01:40:47,560 you know that's not necessarily directly 2411 01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:49,540 connected what the question the person 2412 01:40:53,490 --> 01:40:51,370 asked the question asked but it does 2413 01:40:55,620 --> 01:40:53,500 sort of relate to the idea that we could 2414 01:40:58,110 --> 01:40:55,630 be dealing with as ratings you know 2415 01:40:59,850 --> 01:40:58,120 negative entities that you know don't 2416 01:41:01,860 --> 01:40:59,860 have our best interests at heart 2417 01:41:04,140 --> 01:41:01,870 well here's another question from one of 2418 01:41:06,540 --> 01:41:04,150 our posters trained observer I think you 2419 01:41:09,270 --> 01:41:06,550 knew Karla Turner correct you you met 2420 01:41:11,970 --> 01:41:09,280 her he wants to know if you are aware of 2421 01:41:13,830 --> 01:41:11,980 any men in black encounters that she may 2422 01:41:17,070 --> 01:41:13,840 have had you know that she did 2423 01:41:18,870 --> 01:41:17,080 experience an untimely passing kind of 2424 01:41:23,910 --> 01:41:18,880 in line so their line in question in 2425 01:41:25,890 --> 01:41:23,920 here one of the people I interviewed for 2426 01:41:28,110 --> 01:41:25,900 the book was Greg Bishop a good friend 2427 01:41:31,140 --> 01:41:28,120 of mine and Greg knew Karla very well 2428 01:41:33,420 --> 01:41:31,150 and they interacted and chatted a lot 2429 01:41:36,240 --> 01:41:33,430 and exchanged letters quite deeply on 2430 01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:36,250 the whole UFO abduction angle alien 2431 01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:38,050 abduction which was Carla's big area 2432 01:41:43,530 --> 01:41:40,210 Greg told me something that was sort of 2433 01:41:46,560 --> 01:41:43,540 deeply relative to the whole men in 2434 01:41:48,209 --> 01:41:46,570 black mystery and that was that on many 2435 01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:48,219 occasions you know this is sort of 2436 01:41:53,790 --> 01:41:49,930 pre-internet he recalled for the most 2437 01:41:55,979 --> 01:41:53,800 part if we talking sort of 93-94 and he 2438 01:41:58,860 --> 01:41:55,989 told me how even Carla would exchange 2439 01:42:01,350 --> 01:41:58,870 letters in the mail and when the letters 2440 01:42:03,410 --> 01:42:01,360 would arrive at his ended at her end 2441 01:42:06,300 --> 01:42:03,420 they were always open and tampered with 2442 01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:06,310 and been resealed but in a fashion where 2443 01:42:11,220 --> 01:42:08,290 it was obvious that whoever done it I've 2444 01:42:13,470 --> 01:42:11,230 done it in such a way as to let of Greg 2445 01:42:14,850 --> 01:42:13,480 and Carl and know that them letters had 2446 01:42:16,950 --> 01:42:14,860 been opened you know it wasn't done 2447 01:42:19,530 --> 01:42:16,960 carefully it was almost done as if to 2448 01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:19,540 say just to let you know we're in a 2449 01:42:25,979 --> 01:42:23,530 Cavalier fashion which kind of dovetails 2450 01:42:28,020 --> 01:42:25,989 into my my man in black case the only 2451 01:42:30,570 --> 01:42:28,030 one that I have other than my own 2452 01:42:33,570 --> 01:42:30,580 personal experience with having 2453 01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:33,580 photographs maps and files taken from my 2454 01:42:40,830 --> 01:42:38,530 office by a team of dark clothed 2455 01:42:43,770 --> 01:42:40,840 individuals these guys were wearing 2456 01:42:46,390 --> 01:42:43,780 night vision though I had don't gloss 2457 01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:46,400 over this Chris please 2458 01:42:51,370 --> 01:42:48,050 I'm not gonna gloss over it just read my 2459 01:42:54,910 --> 01:42:51,380 books it's all there I had a case a 2460 01:42:57,580 --> 01:42:54,920 woman claims she was an abductee she was 2461 01:43:00,130 --> 01:42:57,590 referred to me by the Sheriff's 2462 01:43:02,229 --> 01:43:00,140 Department and by the dispatcher who was 2463 01:43:04,149 --> 01:43:02,239 a friend she said this this lady needs 2464 01:43:06,280 --> 01:43:04,159 someone to talk to please talk to her 2465 01:43:08,439 --> 01:43:06,290 and you know I don't want to digress 2466 01:43:11,320 --> 01:43:08,449 into the whole case which is absolutely 2467 01:43:12,939 --> 01:43:11,330 fascinating my only real I think truly 2468 01:43:14,950 --> 01:43:12,949 were the abduction case that I 2469 01:43:17,500 --> 01:43:14,960 investigated from the San Luis Valley 2470 01:43:20,649 --> 01:43:17,510 but one of the interesting elements that 2471 01:43:22,330 --> 01:43:20,659 she she mentioned was that her mail was 2472 01:43:23,919 --> 01:43:22,340 being tampered with which you know 2473 01:43:27,220 --> 01:43:23,929 dovetails in with what you were saying 2474 01:43:29,470 --> 01:43:27,230 about Greg and Carla and she would be 2475 01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:29,480 about oh I don't know a couple of three 2476 01:43:34,180 --> 01:43:31,370 hundred yards from her mailbox down a 2477 01:43:35,620 --> 01:43:34,190 long driveway unobstructed yeah she was 2478 01:43:37,419 --> 01:43:35,630 having problems with her mail not 2479 01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:37,429 arriving people saying you know I sent 2480 01:43:40,330 --> 01:43:38,690 you something did you get it and she 2481 01:43:42,459 --> 01:43:40,340 would say no well one day she was 2482 01:43:46,870 --> 01:43:42,469 looking out her window and she saw a 2483 01:43:49,570 --> 01:43:46,880 dark old-fashioned car she didn't really 2484 01:43:51,910 --> 01:43:49,580 describe the model to make but she said 2485 01:43:56,140 --> 01:43:51,920 it was definitely an old car but looked 2486 01:43:57,550 --> 01:43:56,150 brand-new and she swore up and down I I 2487 01:43:59,320 --> 01:43:57,560 tried to get her to come up with a 2488 01:44:02,200 --> 01:43:59,330 different term but she said the Blues 2489 01:44:03,820 --> 01:44:02,210 Brothers were coming it would got out of 2490 01:44:06,550 --> 01:44:03,830 this car and were rifling through her 2491 01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:06,560 mail at her mailbox and I said well what 2492 01:44:09,729 --> 01:44:08,090 do you mean the Blues Brothers and she 2493 01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:09,739 said they look like Jake and Elwood they 2494 01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:12,170 were dressed in in like porkpie hats 2495 01:44:15,930 --> 01:44:14,570 they had thin skinny ties she was 2496 01:44:18,550 --> 01:44:15,940 looking at him through a spotting scope 2497 01:44:20,470 --> 01:44:18,560 they were dressed all in black suits 2498 01:44:22,689 --> 01:44:20,480 they would rifle through her mail she 2499 01:44:24,970 --> 01:44:22,699 would run outside get on her ATV and 2500 01:44:27,130 --> 01:44:24,980 start hotfooting it down to her mailbox 2501 01:44:28,959 --> 01:44:27,140 and they would you know get into the car 2502 01:44:30,669 --> 01:44:28,969 and take off I'll tell you what this is 2503 01:44:31,899 --> 01:44:30,679 going to be a cat-and-mouse game we'll 2504 01:44:34,390 --> 01:44:31,909 get into more of this in a moment 2505 01:44:36,850 --> 01:44:34,400 Chris O'Brien's the co-host our guest is 2506 01:44:38,540 --> 01:44:36,860 Nick Redfern I'm gene Steinberg you're 2507 01:44:44,790 --> 01:44:38,550 in the paratus 2508 01:44:47,440 --> 01:44:44,800 [Music] 2509 01:44:49,450 --> 01:44:47,450 hi Ted Anderson announcing a great way 2510 01:44:51,490 --> 01:44:49,460 to listen to radio on the telephone by 2511 01:44:53,350 --> 01:44:51,500 calling seven six oh five six nine 2512 01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:53,360 seventy seven hundred you'll be hearing 2513 01:44:58,240 --> 01:44:55,850 GCM live.com programs in seconds 2514 01:45:00,340 --> 01:44:58,250 come to GCN live.com find your favorite 2515 01:45:02,950 --> 01:45:00,350 host dedicated phone number and hear 2516 01:45:05,650 --> 01:45:02,960 them 24/7 you heard me right every show 2517 01:45:07,630 --> 01:45:05,660 has a dedicated phone number stop by GC 2518 01:45:10,030 --> 01:45:07,640 and live.com and bookmark their number 2519 01:45:12,790 --> 01:45:10,040 today and again that's seven six oh five 2520 01:45:14,110 --> 01:45:12,800 six nine seventy seven hundred we the 2521 01:45:16,030 --> 01:45:14,120 people grow cotton wheat fabric 2522 01:45:17,470 --> 01:45:16,040 engraving embeds strips and fibers to 2523 01:45:19,090 --> 01:45:17,480 protect from counterfeit and carding to 2524 01:45:19,510 --> 01:45:19,100 a private bank having a light back at 2525 01:45:21,130 --> 01:45:19,520 interest 2526 01:45:22,780 --> 01:45:21,140 forcing taxes to service death this 2527 01:45:24,100 --> 01:45:22,790 capitalism was Jefferson correct when 2528 01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:24,110 stating a central bank issuing the 2529 01:45:26,620 --> 01:45:25,610 public currency is a greater menace to 2530 01:45:27,880 --> 01:45:26,630 the liberties of the people than a 2531 01:45:29,170 --> 01:45:27,890 standing army today understand I'm 2532 01:45:30,850 --> 01:45:29,180 placing a free silver dollar in a book 2533 01:45:33,970 --> 01:45:30,860 that explains our monetary system call 2534 01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:33,980 for your copy 800 686 to 237 it's time 2535 01:45:51,580 --> 01:45:36,890 to understand the system call 866 to 237 2536 01:45:57,569 --> 01:45:51,590 that's 800 686 and now here's gene 2537 01:46:02,799 --> 01:46:00,399 Nik you said that laugh is not maniacal 2538 01:46:04,839 --> 01:46:02,809 enough he wasn't maniacal I just thought 2539 01:46:07,209 --> 01:46:04,849 I'd change it up a little bit that was 2540 01:46:08,979 --> 01:46:07,219 good that works fine you're in the power 2541 01:46:11,589 --> 01:46:08,989 cast with Gene and Chris and Nick 2542 01:46:14,109 --> 01:46:11,599 Redfern Chris is telling us his story 2543 01:46:15,189 --> 01:46:14,119 about the Blues Brothers showing up at 2544 01:46:17,770 --> 01:46:15,199 somebody's house 2545 01:46:19,959 --> 01:46:17,780 yeah she's worth they look just like 2546 01:46:22,449 --> 01:46:19,969 Jake and Elwood one was tall one was 2547 01:46:25,479 --> 01:46:22,459 short she ended up having to get a post 2548 01:46:27,879 --> 01:46:25,489 office box at a nearby town and she 2549 01:46:30,060 --> 01:46:27,889 still had some mail problems but this 2550 01:46:32,399 --> 01:46:30,070 brings up a very interesting point 2551 01:46:36,250 --> 01:46:32,409 intimidation of witnesses 2552 01:46:38,729 --> 01:46:36,260 you know rifling through mail are all 2553 01:46:41,770 --> 01:46:38,739 these just standalone sort of 2554 01:46:43,689 --> 01:46:41,780 synchronistic occurrences or can you 2555 01:46:46,869 --> 01:46:43,699 really determine some sort of pattern 2556 01:46:49,060 --> 01:46:46,879 here Nick well I think in the sense that 2557 01:46:52,179 --> 01:46:49,070 you know when we look into the history 2558 01:46:55,209 --> 01:46:52,189 of the men in black history and we speak 2559 01:46:58,479 --> 01:46:55,219 to you know witnesses far and wide we do 2560 01:47:00,609 --> 01:46:58,489 find exam repeated examples of certain 2561 01:47:02,500 --> 01:47:00,619 things you know the intimidation the 2562 01:47:04,359 --> 01:47:02,510 mail interference weird noises on the 2563 01:47:06,069 --> 01:47:04,369 telephone things like this you know that 2564 01:47:09,909 --> 01:47:06,079 there are certain standards that appear 2565 01:47:11,889 --> 01:47:09,919 in in most MIB case it's not like every 2566 01:47:14,159 --> 01:47:11,899 case is different than random which 2567 01:47:16,479 --> 01:47:14,169 which is interested and in some respects 2568 01:47:18,790 --> 01:47:16,489 surprising you know that's good it is so 2569 01:47:20,379 --> 01:47:18,800 so clear-cut when you look into it you 2570 01:47:21,790 --> 01:47:20,389 know that we do find me although it's 2571 01:47:24,969 --> 01:47:21,800 filled with the subjects filled with 2572 01:47:27,549 --> 01:47:24,979 absurdities it's also filled with you 2573 01:47:29,109 --> 01:47:27,559 know central aspects that don't seem to 2574 01:47:32,379 --> 01:47:29,119 change yeah we have some other questions 2575 01:47:34,929 --> 01:47:32,389 here from the forum I love this one 2576 01:47:38,169 --> 01:47:34,939 my question for Nick this is from span 2577 01:47:41,379 --> 01:47:38,179 Mex guy who's been on the forum since 2578 01:47:43,869 --> 01:47:41,389 January 2011 my question for Nick how 2579 01:47:47,219 --> 01:47:43,879 does one go about obtaining and 2580 01:47:49,959 --> 01:47:47,229 perfecting a cool British accent thanks 2581 01:47:51,549 --> 01:47:49,969 well I guess getting in the first place 2582 01:47:53,679 --> 01:47:51,559 you know just where your ball and that's 2583 01:47:56,049 --> 01:47:53,689 you know that's how it happens but I 2584 01:47:58,179 --> 01:47:56,059 hoping maintaining it I would just be 2585 01:48:01,179 --> 01:47:58,189 disgusted I think I've been in the u.s. 2586 01:48:03,159 --> 01:48:01,189 11 years you know I live in Texas I live 2587 01:48:05,290 --> 01:48:03,169 in Dallas and you know my accents not 2588 01:48:07,089 --> 01:48:05,300 changed and I think a lot of it is sort 2589 01:48:07,870 --> 01:48:07,099 of dependent on what age you know if you 2590 01:48:10,030 --> 01:48:07,880 move out where you 2591 01:48:12,670 --> 01:48:10,040 ten years old yes it's probably gonna 2592 01:48:14,380 --> 01:48:12,680 change you know within a year or two you 2593 01:48:18,220 --> 01:48:14,390 still get accused of coming from New 2594 01:48:20,980 --> 01:48:18,230 York you know I often find it difficult 2595 01:48:23,800 --> 01:48:20,990 to you know pick out you know different 2596 01:48:25,630 --> 01:48:23,810 accents but New York accents I don't you 2597 01:48:28,150 --> 01:48:25,640 know I can pick them out immediately and 2598 01:48:31,090 --> 01:48:28,160 you do have kind of that slight feeling 2599 01:48:32,050 --> 01:48:31,100 about as well you know 12 years and the 2600 01:48:33,640 --> 01:48:32,060 belly of the beast 2601 01:48:35,710 --> 01:48:33,650 okay yeah we're interesting here I just 2602 01:48:38,140 --> 01:48:35,720 want to mention about accents why it is 2603 01:48:42,460 --> 01:48:38,150 that so many British and Australian 2604 01:48:45,220 --> 01:48:42,470 actors want to use American access Hugh 2605 01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:45,230 Laurie House of course of course in the 2606 01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:47,210 Batman movies Christian Bale and Gary 2607 01:48:53,110 --> 01:48:50,570 Oldman and of course the guy who played 2608 01:48:55,690 --> 01:48:53,120 Thor played Captain Kirk's father and 2609 01:48:57,760 --> 01:48:55,700 Star Trek he's Australian why do they do 2610 01:48:59,860 --> 01:48:57,770 that well I don't think it's necessarily 2611 01:49:03,310 --> 01:48:59,870 you know that they want to I think you 2612 01:49:05,590 --> 01:49:03,320 know it's always a job yes I'm kidding 2613 01:49:07,630 --> 01:49:05,600 well I get offered a role in a film and 2614 01:49:09,100 --> 01:49:07,640 the character in the film is American so 2615 01:49:11,530 --> 01:49:09,110 it's if you can do an American accent 2616 01:49:13,420 --> 01:49:11,540 you know the part yours if you can't 2617 01:49:15,550 --> 01:49:13,430 we'll find somebody else I don't think 2618 01:49:16,900 --> 01:49:15,560 it's a case if somebody wants to play an 2619 01:49:18,760 --> 01:49:16,910 American accent any more than an 2620 01:49:20,500 --> 01:49:18,770 American wants to play an English accent 2621 01:49:22,450 --> 01:49:20,510 you know see the part survive all the 2622 01:49:24,220 --> 01:49:22,460 money's good and you want the job you do 2623 01:49:26,260 --> 01:49:24,230 what you've gotta do I guess I just I 2624 01:49:28,120 --> 01:49:26,270 just love Rutger Hauer trying to be an 2625 01:49:31,360 --> 01:49:28,130 American military commander that's 2626 01:49:33,670 --> 01:49:31,370 that's a classic or Arnold I mean my god 2627 01:49:35,560 --> 01:49:33,680 we talk about accents okay let's move on 2628 01:49:38,440 --> 01:49:35,570 to another question here here's a 2629 01:49:40,720 --> 01:49:38,450 question from boomerang who again is 2630 01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:40,730 another late arrival to the para cast 2631 01:49:42,820 --> 01:49:42,170 forums but he asked a very interesting 2632 01:49:45,460 --> 01:49:42,830 question 2633 01:49:48,100 --> 01:49:45,470 which you know I'm interested to hear 2634 01:49:50,320 --> 01:49:48,110 your answer on this Nick where there are 2635 01:49:55,300 --> 01:49:50,330 reports of MIB activities surrounding 2636 01:49:56,830 --> 01:49:55,310 the Rendlesham incident in one sense 2637 01:49:59,770 --> 01:49:56,840 I'll give you an example the Rendlesham 2638 01:50:01,390 --> 01:49:59,780 case the incident in December 1980 when 2639 01:50:04,690 --> 01:50:01,400 there was sort of multiple UFO activity 2640 01:50:07,660 --> 01:50:04,700 in Rendlesham forest England nearby the 2641 01:50:09,850 --> 01:50:07,670 between Air Force bases Bentwaters and 2642 01:50:11,770 --> 01:50:09,860 Woodbridge and it sort of gone down in 2643 01:50:14,620 --> 01:50:11,780 this show yes is like a definitively 2644 01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:14,630 British Roswell in the terms of the fact 2645 01:50:18,690 --> 01:50:16,130 that there are numerous military 2646 01:50:21,040 --> 01:50:18,700 personnel involved clearly talking about 2647 01:50:22,629 --> 01:50:21,050 extraordinary events having occurred 2648 01:50:24,700 --> 01:50:22,639 there are several things about 2649 01:50:28,180 --> 01:50:24,710 Rendlesham that do sort of push it down 2650 01:50:30,669 --> 01:50:28,190 an MIB path one is the fact that on one 2651 01:50:33,419 --> 01:50:30,679 occasion during the course of the three 2652 01:50:36,189 --> 01:50:33,429 nights when the UFO encounters occurred 2653 01:50:38,319 --> 01:50:36,199 Colonel Charles halt who was one of the 2654 01:50:40,959 --> 01:50:38,329 key players in the events and witnesses 2655 01:50:43,689 --> 01:50:40,969 to them actually tape recorded audio 2656 01:50:46,359 --> 01:50:43,699 recorded the movements and the voices of 2657 01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:46,369 his personnel house in the woods the an 2658 01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:49,010 18-minute version of this or any minute 2659 01:50:53,260 --> 01:50:51,530 table should say a surface the number of 2660 01:50:54,850 --> 01:50:53,270 years ago you know where you can listen 2661 01:50:56,560 --> 01:50:54,860 to the guy saying hey what's that light 2662 01:50:58,870 --> 01:50:56,570 you know what's that strange thing out 2663 01:51:00,729 --> 01:50:58,880 there etcetera one of the first person 2664 01:51:03,250 --> 01:51:00,739 to get like a first or second generation 2665 01:51:05,260 --> 01:51:03,260 copy of this tape in England was the 2666 01:51:07,750 --> 01:51:05,270 researcher an author for Jenny Randall's 2667 01:51:11,080 --> 01:51:07,760 and she told a strange story about how 2668 01:51:13,510 --> 01:51:11,090 she was contacted one day by a guy who 2669 01:51:15,669 --> 01:51:13,520 said he worked for the BBC and they 2670 01:51:17,500 --> 01:51:15,679 wanted to do a show but he would need 2671 01:51:19,839 --> 01:51:17,510 access to this for the first or 2672 01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:19,849 second-generation copy of the audio 2673 01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:21,770 recording which wasn't certainly at all 2674 01:51:27,339 --> 01:51:24,170 in widespread circulation at the time 2675 01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:27,349 and she said she was reluctant to give 2676 01:51:31,200 --> 01:51:29,449 him the copy quite understandably you 2677 01:51:34,680 --> 01:51:31,210 know sort of first or second generation 2678 01:51:37,030 --> 01:51:34,690 it was lucky to get something like that 2679 01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:37,040 well how do you even know about it 2680 01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:39,290 well that's an interesting thing as well 2681 01:51:45,399 --> 01:51:43,010 but he gave this guy actually another 2682 01:51:47,049 --> 01:51:45,409 copy of it you know she said well you 2683 01:51:48,970 --> 01:51:47,059 know you can have the copy but it was 2684 01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:48,980 actually sort of further generation copy 2685 01:51:54,399 --> 01:51:51,290 he was very pleased with that vanished 2686 01:51:56,620 --> 01:51:54,409 and sometime later Jenny contacted the 2687 01:51:58,899 --> 01:51:56,630 BBC to say find out when the show was 2688 01:52:01,510 --> 01:51:58,909 airing and gave the guy's name and there 2689 01:52:04,000 --> 01:52:01,520 was no such show and no such guy working 2690 01:52:06,100 --> 01:52:04,010 for the BBC so had she given him this 2691 01:52:08,290 --> 01:52:06,110 the price list sort of first or second 2692 01:52:10,209 --> 01:52:08,300 generation copy you know it would have 2693 01:52:12,609 --> 01:52:10,219 vanished into the night but she gave him 2694 01:52:15,010 --> 01:52:12,619 like a third or fourth generation you 2695 01:52:17,620 --> 01:52:15,020 know was perhaps a good thing so we have 2696 01:52:19,330 --> 01:52:17,630 that aspect there's also a story that in 2697 01:52:21,580 --> 01:52:19,340 the immediate aftermath of the 2698 01:52:23,770 --> 01:52:21,590 experience there were people with 2699 01:52:25,870 --> 01:52:23,780 British accents reportedly from the 2700 01:52:29,049 --> 01:52:25,880 Ministry of Defence wandering around the 2701 01:52:30,910 --> 01:52:29,059 area asking people civilians even if 2702 01:52:33,399 --> 01:52:30,920 they've seen anything unusual going on 2703 01:52:34,610 --> 01:52:33,409 in the woods so we have this issue as 2704 01:52:36,110 --> 01:52:34,620 well because the minister 2705 01:52:38,090 --> 01:52:36,120 Spencer's always maintained he had a 2706 01:52:40,250 --> 01:52:38,100 very low-key involvement and certainly 2707 01:52:42,050 --> 01:52:40,260 never send people out to question 2708 01:52:43,910 --> 01:52:42,060 members of the public or anything like 2709 01:52:46,430 --> 01:52:43,920 that in the area so you know there are 2710 01:52:49,250 --> 01:52:46,440 there are these two aspects at least 2711 01:52:50,150 --> 01:52:49,260 that do have sort of a tinge of the men 2712 01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:50,160 in black to them 2713 01:52:55,070 --> 01:52:51,690 yeah but it sounds like this is 2714 01:52:57,400 --> 01:52:55,080 predominantly I think in one sense of 2715 01:53:02,690 --> 01:52:57,410 the word a North American sort of 2716 01:53:04,690 --> 01:53:02,700 phenomenon hope for instance from one 2717 01:53:08,150 --> 01:53:04,700 Nick to another Nick has Nick Pope 2718 01:53:10,490 --> 01:53:08,160 mentioned anything in his you know 2719 01:53:12,620 --> 01:53:10,500 presentations or books or whatever about 2720 01:53:16,240 --> 01:53:12,630 a men and black phenomenon associated 2721 01:53:19,040 --> 01:53:16,250 with the mo D how maybe mo D type 2722 01:53:21,740 --> 01:53:19,050 personnel could be construed as men and 2723 01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:21,750 black characters yeah I mean one of the 2724 01:53:25,070 --> 01:53:23,250 important things a lot of people don't 2725 01:53:27,980 --> 01:53:25,080 realize about Nick Pope and his 2726 01:53:30,260 --> 01:53:27,990 particular office base um you know this 2727 01:53:32,390 --> 01:53:30,270 was like an x-files office it wasn't you 2728 01:53:34,820 --> 01:53:32,400 know by Nix I would initially because he 2729 01:53:37,700 --> 01:53:34,830 never went out on a single case no he 2730 01:53:39,350 --> 01:53:37,710 never left the mo D main building is the 2731 01:53:41,510 --> 01:53:39,360 official name of it the main building 2732 01:53:43,580 --> 01:53:41,520 it wasn't like and it would repel taking 2733 01:53:45,980 --> 01:53:43,590 a bus to the case where a sighting 2734 01:53:48,080 --> 01:53:45,990 occurred no it was literally a case of 2735 01:53:50,150 --> 01:53:48,090 people sending reports into the mo D 2736 01:53:51,740 --> 01:53:50,160 they were breached Nick and then he 2737 01:53:54,680 --> 01:53:51,750 would share them with people like radar 2738 01:53:55,490 --> 01:53:54,690 experts or satellite experts and see if 2739 01:53:57,710 --> 01:53:55,500 they could come up with an explanation 2740 01:53:59,660 --> 01:53:57,720 but he never you know jumps on a train 2741 01:54:01,430 --> 01:53:59,670 when somebody said a UFO had landed in 2742 01:54:03,290 --> 01:54:01,440 their backyard or whatever nothing like 2743 01:54:05,330 --> 01:54:03,300 that ever happened now I interviewed me 2744 01:54:07,880 --> 01:54:05,340 for the book about his views on the man 2745 01:54:09,980 --> 01:54:07,890 in black and he didn't deny that there's 2746 01:54:11,630 --> 01:54:09,990 a man in black history but what he said 2747 01:54:13,010 --> 01:54:11,640 was he's sure that it's nothing to do 2748 01:54:15,890 --> 01:54:13,020 with the Ministry of Defence and he took 2749 01:54:17,990 --> 01:54:15,900 the view that many of the so-called men 2750 01:54:20,420 --> 01:54:18,000 in black he believes are so-called 2751 01:54:22,640 --> 01:54:20,430 walter mitty type characters people in 2752 01:54:24,020 --> 01:54:22,650 the UFO field who you know enjoy 2753 01:54:26,570 --> 01:54:24,030 building a bit of mystique about 2754 01:54:29,210 --> 01:54:26,580 themselves might dress in black you know 2755 01:54:32,210 --> 01:54:29,220 go to conferences or visit witnesses and 2756 01:54:35,270 --> 01:54:32,220 perhaps you know make a make a comment 2757 01:54:38,540 --> 01:54:35,280 or a pair just weird thing like Mike 2758 01:54:42,320 --> 01:54:38,550 Hanks in in Asheville I love that story 2759 01:54:43,550 --> 01:54:42,330 in your book and you know I do think 2760 01:54:45,410 --> 01:54:43,560 there's something serious because both 2761 01:54:48,410 --> 01:54:45,420 Brad Steiger and Jim Mosley who I 2762 01:54:50,630 --> 01:54:48,420 interviewed they tell me that they felt 2763 01:54:52,100 --> 01:54:50,640 although they both you know Brad 2764 01:54:55,130 --> 01:54:52,110 particularly believes you know in the 2765 01:54:57,500 --> 01:54:55,140 existence of a genuine MIB phenomenon of 2766 01:54:59,720 --> 01:54:57,510 unknown origins but he did concede and 2767 01:55:01,160 --> 01:54:59,730 as I point out in the book he said he 2768 01:55:03,590 --> 01:55:01,170 felt that some MIB 2769 01:55:06,110 --> 01:55:03,600 we're actually sort of pimply-faced 2770 01:55:09,260 --> 01:55:06,120 teenagers from the old NICAP group who 2771 01:55:11,689 --> 01:55:09,270 had visited UFO witnesses flashed a card 2772 01:55:13,610 --> 01:55:11,699 saying I from nycap in Washington you 2773 01:55:15,650 --> 01:55:13,620 know which sort of might have scared the 2774 01:55:17,450 --> 01:55:15,660 you-know-what out of some somebody in 2775 01:55:19,340 --> 01:55:17,460 the middle of the countryside who knew 2776 01:55:21,020 --> 01:55:19,350 nothing about UFOs of them the fact that 2777 01:55:23,090 --> 01:55:21,030 they'd seen something they had over 2778 01:55:25,640 --> 01:55:23,100 inflated egos as they say will go into 2779 01:55:27,800 --> 01:55:25,650 it or the overinflated egos in a moment 2780 01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:27,810 I do not have an overinflated ego I have 2781 01:55:31,100 --> 01:55:29,730 no ego I don't think I'm any good at 2782 01:55:32,900 --> 01:55:31,110 anything I'm going to give it up now 2783 01:55:34,939 --> 01:55:32,910 though I'm not Nick Redfern joins us 2784 01:55:45,320 --> 01:55:34,949 Chris O'Brien's the co-host I'm gene 2785 01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:45,330 Steinberg you're in the para cast you 2786 01:55:48,919 --> 01:55:47,010 expect professional service from your 2787 01:55:50,600 --> 01:55:48,929 doctor your accountant and even the girl 2788 01:55:52,430 --> 01:55:50,610 who takes your morning coffee order why 2789 01:55:54,890 --> 01:55:52,440 not from your domain registrar to 2790 01:55:57,260 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and much 2804 01:56:27,290 --> 01:56:24,900 much more to receive your complimentary 2805 01:56:30,169 --> 01:56:27,300 fate magazine call now at one eight 2806 01:56:33,620 --> 01:56:30,179 hundred seven - eight - seven 300 or 2807 01:56:35,419 --> 01:56:33,630 visit their website at WWF it may calm 2808 01:56:37,669 --> 01:56:35,429 that's one eight hundred seven two eight 2809 01:56:40,250 --> 01:56:37,679 two seven three zero what are you 2810 01:56:42,020 --> 01:56:40,260 waiting for your fate awaits again the 2811 01:56:42,439 --> 01:56:42,030 Congressional Budget Office sounds the 2812 01:56:44,840 --> 01:56:42,449 alarm 2813 01:56:47,330 --> 01:56:44,850 this time warns of greek-style US debt 2814 01:56:49,010 --> 01:56:47,340 crises you heard me right the GAO is 2815 01:56:51,229 --> 01:56:49,020 drawing a parallel between the US 2816 01:56:53,390 --> 01:56:51,239 economy its debt and the current Greek 2817 01:56:55,700 --> 01:56:53,400 economic meltdown with the debt to GDP 2818 01:56:58,340 --> 01:56:55,710 chart climbing into unfamiliar territory 2819 01:57:00,800 --> 01:56:58,350 the growing budget deficit will rise to 2820 01:57:01,440 --> 01:57:00,810 unsupportable levels hi this is Ted 2821 01:57:03,540 --> 01:57:01,450 Anderson 2822 01:57:06,330 --> 01:57:03,550 federal debt and risk of financial 2823 01:57:08,520 --> 01:57:06,340 crises document the CBO has published is 2824 01:57:10,470 --> 01:57:08,530 a must-read for every American 2825 01:57:12,210 --> 01:57:10,480 covering the risk of continued deficit 2826 01:57:14,430 --> 01:57:12,220 spending coupled with an aging 2827 01:57:17,010 --> 01:57:14,440 population and the rising interest rates 2828 01:57:19,020 --> 01:57:17,020 spell economic disaster it's imperative 2829 01:57:37,100 --> 01:57:19,030 that you get a copy of this document and 2830 01:57:59,490 --> 01:57:57,630 806-853-9949 heavy metals boost energy 2831 01:58:01,560 --> 01:57:59,500 levels and promotes a strong immune 2832 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--> 01:59:57,850 comment or question about the pair cast 2860 02:00:05,790 --> 02:00:01,750 send it to news at the podcast com 2861 02:00:07,650 --> 02:00:05,800 that's news at the para cast calm and 2862 02:00:10,650 --> 02:00:07,660 don't forget to visit our famous pair 2863 02:00:13,530 --> 02:00:10,660 cast community forums at forum dot the 2864 02:00:21,360 --> 02:00:13,540 para cast comm get in on all the action 2865 02:00:24,690 --> 02:00:21,370 at forum dot the para cast comm people 2866 02:00:27,930 --> 02:00:24,700 at our network do that Nick hold on hold 2867 02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:27,940 on the second gene every time I go the 2868 02:00:42,090 --> 02:00:30,970 para cast Nick comes up with his cackle 2869 02:00:47,700 --> 02:00:42,100 what's open that something that you 2870 02:00:49,500 --> 02:00:47,710 inspire in people friends phone every 2871 02:00:50,850 --> 02:00:49,510 day you know you and I talk regularly 2872 02:00:52,590 --> 02:00:50,860 about different things one thing or 2873 02:01:01,650 --> 02:00:52,600 another and I hang up the phone my wife 2874 02:01:03,990 --> 02:01:01,660 says why did you start cackling that's 2875 02:01:05,580 --> 02:01:04,000 it we don't pay for cackling either but 2876 02:01:08,340 --> 02:01:05,590 you know someday the show is on a 2877 02:01:10,500 --> 02:01:08,350 hundred stations making big bucks will 2878 02:01:12,540 --> 02:01:10,510 pay for the cackling Nick Redferns book 2879 02:01:14,730 --> 02:01:12,550 is the real men in black our co-host is 2880 02:01:16,860 --> 02:01:14,740 Chris O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg 2881 02:01:19,080 --> 02:01:16,870 wondering about the cackling also about 2882 02:01:21,180 --> 02:01:19,090 the pimply-faced teenagers so do you 2883 02:01:23,850 --> 02:01:21,190 think a certain portion of these men and 2884 02:01:27,210 --> 02:01:23,860 black stories are young people who are 2885 02:01:28,950 --> 02:01:27,220 possessed of over inflated egos they go 2886 02:01:31,320 --> 02:01:28,960 out there with their night cap cards or 2887 02:01:33,570 --> 02:01:31,330 whatever club they're members of and 2888 02:01:35,280 --> 02:01:33,580 they say I'm from Washington I'm from 2889 02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:35,290 this I'm from that or do they put on 2890 02:01:39,420 --> 02:01:37,090 black uniforms just for the heck of it 2891 02:01:41,130 --> 02:01:39,430 well it could be a combination of all 2892 02:01:43,470 --> 02:01:41,140 sorts of things like that you know as I 2893 02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:43,480 said I don't shy away from addressing 2894 02:01:46,260 --> 02:01:44,770 the fact that I don't think there's just 2895 02:01:48,120 --> 02:01:46,270 one category of MIB 2896 02:01:50,220 --> 02:01:48,130 I don't think there's one phenomenon 2897 02:01:52,830 --> 02:01:50,230 that is led to the legends of the MIB 2898 02:01:54,780 --> 02:01:52,840 and I think Brad Steiger and those Jim 2899 02:01:57,030 --> 02:01:54,790 Mosely did make good points but if in 2900 02:01:58,950 --> 02:01:57,040 the sixties you know the UFO groups are 2901 02:02:00,930 --> 02:01:58,960 far more prevalent than today I mean 2902 02:02:03,150 --> 02:02:00,940 today a lot of research is to unveil the 2903 02:02:05,190 --> 02:02:03,160 internet back then it really was field 2904 02:02:05,850 --> 02:02:05,200 researching getting out and speaking to 2905 02:02:08,460 --> 02:02:05,860 the people 2906 02:02:10,350 --> 02:02:08,470 and as both Brad and Jim rightly pointed 2907 02:02:12,150 --> 02:02:10,360 out there's probably no more field of 2908 02:02:15,780 --> 02:02:12,160 the paranormal that's more jealous and 2909 02:02:17,310 --> 02:02:15,790 ego driven and one position one person 2910 02:02:19,290 --> 02:02:17,320 yeah in competition wanted to be the 2911 02:02:20,970 --> 02:02:19,300 biggest person with the biggest case and 2912 02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:20,980 so they may well have said to their 2913 02:02:25,980 --> 02:02:23,290 witnesses as human Brad said you know 2914 02:02:27,990 --> 02:02:25,990 don't talk about this case if anybody 2915 02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:28,000 else comes along and if you flash in a 2916 02:02:32,250 --> 02:02:30,010 card saying I'm from nycap in Washington 2917 02:02:34,260 --> 02:02:32,260 don't talk about this case you can well 2918 02:02:36,060 --> 02:02:34,270 understand how somebody it's in the 2919 02:02:39,360 --> 02:02:36,070 country not really conversing with 2920 02:02:41,250 --> 02:02:39,370 ufology a year later see something about 2921 02:02:43,170 --> 02:02:41,260 the man in black thinks holy crap you 2922 02:02:45,480 --> 02:02:43,180 know that's the guys who visited me and 2923 02:02:47,580 --> 02:02:45,490 they might want to sort of impress upon 2924 02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:47,590 the person their professionalism so 2925 02:02:51,270 --> 02:02:49,210 instead of just turn up in a jeans and 2926 02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:51,280 t-shirt as I probably would you know 2927 02:02:57,570 --> 02:02:53,770 they wear a black suit and tie which 2928 02:02:59,550 --> 02:02:57,580 just amplifies that idea even more and I 2929 02:03:01,980 --> 02:02:59,560 don't think it's a significant part of 2930 02:03:04,440 --> 02:03:01,990 the phenomenon but I do think it may 2931 02:03:06,330 --> 02:03:04,450 well have played a role in certain cases 2932 02:03:08,280 --> 02:03:06,340 that have sort of stood the test of time 2933 02:03:09,840 --> 02:03:08,290 in terms of people still talking about 2934 02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:09,850 them you know but I don't think it 2935 02:03:14,490 --> 02:03:12,130 certainly can be written off just as 2936 02:03:16,530 --> 02:03:14,500 that but it may be a few significant 2937 02:03:18,900 --> 02:03:16,540 cases do fall into that category yeah 2938 02:03:21,270 --> 02:03:18,910 but this may be a very important sort of 2939 02:03:22,950 --> 02:03:21,280 subset of information here what we're 2940 02:03:25,500 --> 02:03:22,960 looking at here at least in my 2941 02:03:28,740 --> 02:03:25,510 interpretation is the birth of a modern 2942 02:03:30,900 --> 02:03:28,750 myth these inconsequential synchronistic 2943 02:03:33,390 --> 02:03:30,910 events perhaps it's a pimply-faced 2944 02:03:35,070 --> 02:03:33,400 teenager showing up with makeup on in 2945 02:03:37,710 --> 02:03:35,080 lipstick I mean there's a couple of 2946 02:03:40,350 --> 02:03:37,720 really hilarious vignettes in your book 2947 02:03:44,310 --> 02:03:40,360 about some of the appearances of these 2948 02:03:47,070 --> 02:03:44,320 characters but if somebody is going to 2949 02:03:49,380 --> 02:03:47,080 investigate a case let's say and they 2950 02:03:51,690 --> 02:03:49,390 want to you know have some sort of 2951 02:03:53,300 --> 02:03:51,700 proprietary over the case and they warn 2952 02:03:56,790 --> 02:03:53,310 people off don't talk to anybody else 2953 02:04:00,060 --> 02:03:56,800 could we be seen I wouldn't say innocent 2954 02:04:02,730 --> 02:04:00,070 but of almost a an accidental creation 2955 02:04:04,890 --> 02:04:02,740 of a popular modern myth I mean 2956 02:04:07,470 --> 02:04:04,900 obviously I'm not you know I'm not 2957 02:04:10,260 --> 02:04:07,480 saying all men and black cases are of 2958 02:04:12,930 --> 02:04:10,270 this ilk but I think this may be a very 2959 02:04:15,020 --> 02:04:12,940 important aspect of this whole mystery 2960 02:04:17,490 --> 02:04:15,030 in this phenomenon that 2961 02:04:18,270 --> 02:04:17,500 misidentification of individuals with 2962 02:04:20,970 --> 02:04:18,280 questionable 2963 02:04:23,040 --> 02:04:20,980 motives in some sort of visitation type 2964 02:04:26,760 --> 02:04:23,050 encounter with a witness could 2965 02:04:29,339 --> 02:04:26,770 inadvertently be fueling this whole sort 2966 02:04:32,549 --> 02:04:29,349 of snowball that's being a very black 2967 02:04:35,520 --> 02:04:32,559 snowball in this sense that's rolling 2968 02:04:37,229 --> 02:04:35,530 down the hill now let's move it on where 2969 02:04:38,819 --> 02:04:37,239 we're kind of running out at a time here 2970 02:04:42,140 --> 02:04:38,829 and I really want to get into some of 2971 02:04:44,569 --> 02:04:42,150 the more I think creative and esoteric 2972 02:04:48,029 --> 02:04:44,579 theorizing around the men in black 2973 02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:48,039 history let's look at the actual 2974 02:04:53,520 --> 02:04:50,770 accoutrements of these individuals they 2975 02:04:55,439 --> 02:04:53,530 seem to be always described as being 2976 02:04:58,470 --> 02:04:55,449 dressed in a very generic 2977 02:05:00,770 --> 02:04:58,480 kind of time period sort of sense in 2978 02:05:03,410 --> 02:05:00,780 other words a lot of these cases feature 2979 02:05:06,209 --> 02:05:03,420 out-of-date cars that look brand-new 2980 02:05:08,490 --> 02:05:06,219 costumes and makeup that appeared to be 2981 02:05:11,669 --> 02:05:08,500 out of place and out of time for the 2982 02:05:14,370 --> 02:05:11,679 particular event let's look at it a very 2983 02:05:15,689 --> 02:05:14,380 intriguing theory that you have that we 2984 02:05:17,760 --> 02:05:15,699 may be looking at some sort of 2985 02:05:19,589 --> 02:05:17,770 time-based phenomenon here that maybe 2986 02:05:22,890 --> 02:05:19,599 we're dealing with something that is 2987 02:05:26,490 --> 02:05:22,900 being projected back into our time frame 2988 02:05:28,470 --> 02:05:26,500 with an approximation of the the 2989 02:05:30,930 --> 02:05:28,480 costuming and accoutrements of the time 2990 02:05:33,029 --> 02:05:30,940 and how they may be out of place I think 2991 02:05:34,859 --> 02:05:33,039 this is at least in my personal 2992 02:05:37,080 --> 02:05:34,869 estimation this is the most exciting 2993 02:05:40,350 --> 02:05:37,090 aspect of your book analyzing this 2994 02:05:43,229 --> 02:05:40,360 phenomenon let's start at at that basic 2995 02:05:46,080 --> 02:05:43,239 point of okay let's factor out and leave 2996 02:05:48,180 --> 02:05:46,090 a sign all the you know possible mundane 2997 02:05:50,339 --> 02:05:48,190 explanations let's really look towards 2998 02:05:52,709 --> 02:05:50,349 the highest range here yes sure well 2999 02:05:54,839 --> 02:05:52,719 this theory predominantly so came to me 3000 02:05:57,120 --> 02:05:54,849 by a paranormal researcher named Joshua 3001 02:05:58,770 --> 02:05:57,130 P Warren who lives in North Carolina in 3002 02:06:00,870 --> 02:05:58,780 Asheville he was on a show just a few 3003 02:06:03,510 --> 02:06:00,880 weeks ago Nick all right cool josh is 3004 02:06:05,729 --> 02:06:03,520 sort of very you know open-minded deeply 3005 02:06:08,189 --> 02:06:05,739 basically based researcher and author 3006 02:06:11,040 --> 02:06:08,199 and you know he's come up with a lot of 3007 02:06:12,450 --> 02:06:11,050 good strong alternative theories for 3008 02:06:14,819 --> 02:06:12,460 what you know why they different 3009 02:06:16,950 --> 02:06:14,829 phenomena one of them being the men in 3010 02:06:18,959 --> 02:06:16,960 black Josh you know came up with the 3011 02:06:21,240 --> 02:06:18,969 idea that you could the man in black 3012 02:06:23,160 --> 02:06:21,250 actually be Time Traveller's you point 3013 02:06:25,410 --> 02:06:23,170 out quite correctly everything about the 3014 02:06:28,109 --> 02:06:25,420 man in black just seemed out of time the 3015 02:06:30,450 --> 02:06:28,119 mode of dress perhaps particularly the 3016 02:06:31,949 --> 02:06:30,460 cars it's almost as if you know they 3017 02:06:35,250 --> 02:06:31,959 kind of screwed 3018 02:06:36,629 --> 02:06:35,260 10 or 20 years out-of-date you know that 3019 02:06:38,850 --> 02:06:36,639 wherever they appear there's something 3020 02:06:42,569 --> 02:06:38,860 slightly wrong or very often at least 3021 02:06:44,850 --> 02:06:42,579 Josh wondered if the MIB you could be 3022 02:06:46,799 --> 02:06:44,860 literal almost like time cops was the 3023 02:06:48,719 --> 02:06:46,809 way he kind of described it the idea 3024 02:06:51,299 --> 02:06:48,729 being that perhaps he looked at for 3025 02:06:53,040 --> 02:06:51,309 example things like Mothman he wondered 3026 02:06:55,589 --> 02:06:53,050 if at some point in the Earth's future 3027 02:06:57,810 --> 02:06:55,599 there are entities and creatures that 3028 02:06:59,520 --> 02:06:57,820 travel back into our past and that 3029 02:07:01,770 --> 02:06:59,530 manipulate the timelines for their 3030 02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:01,780 benefit no no this sounds like something 3031 02:07:06,089 --> 02:07:03,610 straight out of you know a fantastic 3032 02:07:08,850 --> 02:07:06,099 highly entertaining sci-fi movie but the 3033 02:07:11,189 --> 02:07:08,860 hypothesis just Josh wondered about was 3034 02:07:13,859 --> 02:07:11,199 they should say hypothetically Mothman 3035 02:07:16,319 --> 02:07:13,869 is some sort of future entity that's 3036 02:07:19,140 --> 02:07:16,329 come back to our presence or the 1960s 3037 02:07:21,270 --> 02:07:19,150 to manipulate the timelines to benefit 3038 02:07:24,239 --> 02:07:21,280 itself in the future and that the MIB 3039 02:07:26,640 --> 02:07:24,249 are essentially time cops who also come 3040 02:07:29,759 --> 02:07:26,650 back to try and prevent any sort of 3041 02:07:32,310 --> 02:07:29,769 paradoxes or fluxes in the time line 3042 02:07:34,709 --> 02:07:32,320 from occurring and that's why when 3043 02:07:36,509 --> 02:07:34,719 Mothman appears the MIB appear because 3044 02:07:38,790 --> 02:07:36,519 they're actually trying to prevent any 3045 02:07:40,500 --> 02:07:38,800 time-based disasters from happening so 3046 02:07:43,290 --> 02:07:40,510 the question would be here are they 3047 02:07:46,140 --> 02:07:43,300 coming here Mothman other creatures by 3048 02:07:48,449 --> 02:07:46,150 accident or are they more intelligent 3049 02:07:49,770 --> 02:07:48,459 than we believe they are well just took 3050 02:07:52,169 --> 02:07:49,780 the view that you know we're talking 3051 02:07:54,239 --> 02:07:52,179 about highly sophisticated intelligent 3052 02:07:57,299 --> 02:07:54,249 entities there are literally 3053 02:08:00,299 --> 02:07:57,309 manipulating the past to help the future 3054 02:08:02,549 --> 02:08:00,309 for their own benefits but he speculated 3055 02:08:05,279 --> 02:08:02,559 maybe their benefit would actually 3056 02:08:07,560 --> 02:08:05,289 recklessly alter timelines which have to 3057 02:08:09,330 --> 02:08:07,570 be corrected and they've got into some 3058 02:08:11,609 --> 02:08:09,340 weird areas we talked about the famous 3059 02:08:13,290 --> 02:08:11,619 Thunderbird photograph as it became 3060 02:08:18,949 --> 02:08:13,300 known which is that's not too well-known 3061 02:08:23,429 --> 02:08:21,449 okay let's talk about that photo in our 3062 02:08:25,080 --> 02:08:23,439 next segment we have Nick Redfern the 3063 02:08:27,959 --> 02:08:25,090 book is called the real men in black and 3064 02:08:29,910 --> 02:08:27,969 Nick's recounting his conversations and 3065 02:08:31,979 --> 02:08:29,920 research with Joshua Warren who's been 3066 02:08:33,929 --> 02:08:31,989 on the show before I'm Jean Steinberg 3067 02:08:41,250 --> 02:08:33,939 the co-host is Chris O'Brien you're in 3068 02:08:41,260 --> 02:08:44,580 [Music] 3069 02:08:48,879 --> 02:08:46,780 graphic converter is the image 3070 02:08:51,550 --> 02:08:48,889 manipulation tool for the rest of us it 3071 02:08:53,530 --> 02:08:51,560 does not use any database you get full 3072 02:08:55,720 --> 02:08:53,540 control of all your files want to view 3073 02:08:57,970 --> 02:08:55,730 the images of a folder drag it into 3074 02:09:00,490 --> 02:08:57,980 graphic converter and a powerful browser 3075 02:09:02,410 --> 02:09:00,500 opens up to show your image files you 3076 02:09:04,479 --> 02:09:02,420 could use it for slideshows you could 3077 02:09:06,580 --> 02:09:04,489 use it to import images from digital 3078 02:09:08,530 --> 02:09:06,590 cameras or from scanners need 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gold has outperformed paper investments 3135 02:11:52,470 --> 02:11:24,590 yet no word about IRAs if you would like 3136 02:12:22,330 --> 02:12:19,270 806-853-9949 ow from zeal king.com 3137 02:12:24,280 --> 02:12:22,340 for only $39.99 and receive a free month 3138 02:12:26,680 --> 02:12:24,290 supply with every order call eight eight 3139 02:12:29,050 --> 02:12:26,690 eight four oh two six seven seventy nine 3140 02:12:32,530 --> 02:12:29,060 that's eight eight eight four oh two six 3141 02:12:36,370 --> 02:12:32,540 seven 79 or visit Zeo king.com 3142 02:12:39,090 --> 02:12:36,380 that's Zeo king.com for natural 3143 02:12:42,460 --> 02:12:39,100 elimination of radiation poisoning are 3144 02:12:45,779 --> 02:12:42,470 you tired of searching for great talk 3145 02:12:55,070 --> 02:12:45,789 radio helping you more important search 3146 02:13:02,640 --> 02:12:59,040 this is ocularly are you listening to 3147 02:13:10,709 --> 02:13:02,650 the podcast the gold standard of car 3148 02:13:16,709 --> 02:13:10,719 mobile radio that is the best laugh 3149 02:13:23,640 --> 02:13:16,719 we've ever had we're gonna have the 3150 02:13:29,130 --> 02:13:23,650 collected laps on an iTunes album just 3151 02:13:30,900 --> 02:13:29,140 Nick Redfern you missed your calling 3152 02:13:33,450 --> 02:13:30,910 dude you should have been a voice-over 3153 02:13:39,479 --> 02:13:33,460 artist for like like horror movies or 3154 02:13:42,030 --> 02:13:39,489 something yeah you're not that old yet 3155 02:13:44,970 --> 02:13:42,040 you have plenty of life left the book is 3156 02:13:47,640 --> 02:13:44,980 real men in black and we're talking 3157 02:13:50,220 --> 02:13:47,650 about out of time creatures they come 3158 02:13:52,080 --> 02:13:50,230 here through an anomaly or something it 3159 02:13:54,390 --> 02:13:52,090 sounds like a cross between the movie 3160 02:13:58,020 --> 02:13:54,400 Timecop where Jean Claude Van Damme 3161 02:14:00,930 --> 02:13:58,030 comes back into time to change what Ron 3162 02:14:02,760 --> 02:14:00,940 silver did to destroy the planet or kill 3163 02:14:05,970 --> 02:14:02,770 his wife or something and then we have 3164 02:14:09,450 --> 02:14:05,980 the TV show the British TV show from the 3165 02:14:12,959 --> 02:14:09,460 BBC where we see them having anomalies 3166 02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:12,969 show up all over the place to infringe 3167 02:14:19,919 --> 02:14:17,290 there's a real strong MIB the watchers 3168 02:14:25,290 --> 02:14:19,929 in the fringe TV show I think a very 3169 02:14:26,459 --> 02:14:25,300 entry got into with this issue once we 3170 02:14:28,410 --> 02:14:26,469 come down as the Thunderbirds 3171 02:14:31,070 --> 02:14:28,420 photographed now numerous people 3172 02:14:34,650 --> 02:14:31,080 primarily in the field of cryptozoology 3173 02:14:37,380 --> 02:14:34,660 reports or remember seeing in the early 3174 02:14:39,959 --> 02:14:37,390 1960s in some of the magazines existed 3175 02:14:42,240 --> 02:14:39,969 at the time like saga and Argosy what 3176 02:14:44,880 --> 02:14:42,250 was reportedly an ancient old photograph 3177 02:14:48,090 --> 02:14:44,890 in the late 1800s showing like a huge 3178 02:14:50,820 --> 02:14:48,100 bird-like creature dead but pinned to 3179 02:14:52,919 --> 02:14:50,830 barn doors somewhere in rural America 3180 02:14:54,780 --> 02:14:52,929 literally dozens and dozens of 3181 02:14:56,700 --> 02:14:54,790 researchers and famous authors have said 3182 02:15:00,060 --> 02:14:56,710 you know we saw this photograph we read 3183 02:15:02,370 --> 02:15:00,070 the story and yet today any attempt to 3184 02:15:03,810 --> 02:15:02,380 find the magazine and the relevant 3185 02:15:05,069 --> 02:15:03,820 photograph is just ended in complete 3186 02:15:07,919 --> 02:15:05,079 failure 3187 02:15:09,659 --> 02:15:07,929 just cannot be found in any issue of any 3188 02:15:12,569 --> 02:15:09,669 of the manual what's up with that boy 3189 02:15:14,520 --> 02:15:12,579 what's up Josh wonder well Josh wondered 3190 02:15:18,209 --> 02:15:14,530 granted it's speculation but he wondered 3191 02:15:20,609 --> 02:15:18,219 if the picture really did appear but 3192 02:15:23,819 --> 02:15:20,619 there was some sort of worry over a time 3193 02:15:26,639 --> 02:15:23,829 paradox concerned and in his scenario 3194 02:15:28,859 --> 02:15:26,649 the man in black go back they confiscate 3195 02:15:30,959 --> 02:15:28,869 the picture before it can appear in the 3196 02:15:34,020 --> 02:15:30,969 magazine and so they create like a 3197 02:15:36,719 --> 02:15:34,030 paradox where people in one timeline 3198 02:15:38,310 --> 02:15:36,729 remember seeing it but then when the men 3199 02:15:40,919 --> 02:15:38,320 in black have meddled with the timeline 3200 02:15:43,049 --> 02:15:40,929 the picture and the relevant article 3201 02:15:45,779 --> 02:15:43,059 never actually appeared but he didn't 3202 02:15:47,759 --> 02:15:45,789 wipe out the presence in the sense that 3203 02:15:50,399 --> 02:15:47,769 the people run with people's memories 3204 02:15:52,679 --> 02:15:50,409 yeah people today recall seeing it but 3205 02:15:55,349 --> 02:15:52,689 the past has been meddled with to a 3206 02:15:57,449 --> 02:15:55,359 point where that's gone you know so this 3207 02:15:59,369 --> 02:15:57,459 is sort of like an interesting twist on 3208 02:15:59,879 --> 02:15:59,379 the time paradox that if you change the 3209 02:16:03,000 --> 02:15:59,889 past 3210 02:16:05,069 --> 02:16:03,010 it doesn't necessarily totally alter the 3211 02:16:06,359 --> 02:16:05,079 present to the extent where people can 3212 02:16:08,069 --> 02:16:06,369 remember things that occurred in the 3213 02:16:10,020 --> 02:16:08,079 past but when we go back and try and 3214 02:16:11,969 --> 02:16:10,030 verify them there's no evidence you'd 3215 02:16:14,399 --> 02:16:11,979 ever occurred so it's basically an 3216 02:16:16,589 --> 02:16:14,409 imperfect process here we can change 3217 02:16:19,020 --> 02:16:16,599 some things we can change maybe the 3218 02:16:21,209 --> 02:16:19,030 actual event but if people experience 3219 02:16:22,770 --> 02:16:21,219 that event they still have it in their 3220 02:16:25,290 --> 02:16:22,780 memory banks and they can just chalk it 3221 02:16:27,239 --> 02:16:25,300 up to well okay I didn't remember it 3222 02:16:29,040 --> 02:16:27,249 properly that's homeboy this is I tell 3223 02:16:32,129 --> 02:16:29,050 you this is grist for the parrot crash 3224 02:16:35,969 --> 02:16:32,139 forum oh yeah this starts out thousand 3225 02:16:38,370 --> 02:16:35,979 one discussions well yeah you know it's 3226 02:16:39,959 --> 02:16:38,380 an interesting theory and I think when 3227 02:16:41,549 --> 02:16:39,969 we when we look at things like the 3228 02:16:43,950 --> 02:16:41,559 Thunderbirds photograph and we look at 3229 02:16:46,950 --> 02:16:43,960 the fact that the MIB everything about 3230 02:16:49,349 --> 02:16:46,960 them just took smacks of outdated 3231 02:16:51,689 --> 02:16:49,359 history and mistake and you know the 3232 02:16:53,580 --> 02:16:51,699 wrong clothes at the wrong time but just 3233 02:16:56,009 --> 02:16:53,590 did wonder and I think this is actually 3234 02:16:58,080 --> 02:16:56,019 a very good point he put forward he's 3235 02:16:59,459 --> 02:16:58,090 like if you're a time car for a time 3236 02:17:04,500 --> 02:16:59,469 travel and you asked her off you have to 3237 02:17:06,179 --> 02:17:04,510 operate in 2011 or 1980 1960 1914 1920 3238 02:17:08,099 --> 02:17:06,189 what's the one mode of dress you could 3239 02:17:10,290 --> 02:17:08,109 probably get away with wearing in all 3240 02:17:12,649 --> 02:17:10,300 those periods you know it would be the 3241 02:17:15,809 --> 02:17:12,659 black suit you know you can't turn up in 3242 02:17:18,209 --> 02:17:15,819 1920 wearing a Metallica t-shirt you 3243 02:17:18,849 --> 02:17:18,219 know and combat boots in the same way 3244 02:17:21,119 --> 02:17:18,859 that 3245 02:17:24,489 --> 02:17:21,129 you're not going to turn up in 1985 3246 02:17:26,589 --> 02:17:24,499 wearing like a Confederate uniform or 3247 02:17:28,599 --> 02:17:26,599 whatever but you could conceivably turn 3248 02:17:30,879 --> 02:17:28,609 up in the black suit in all those 3249 02:17:32,830 --> 02:17:30,889 periods and move amongst people and get 3250 02:17:34,599 --> 02:17:32,840 the job done without attracting too much 3251 02:17:37,000 --> 02:17:34,609 attention apart from the occasional 3252 02:17:39,009 --> 02:17:37,010 person saying who the hell is that weird 3253 02:17:40,809 --> 02:17:39,019 guy why'd you got a fedora on got 3254 02:17:43,449 --> 02:17:40,819 otherwise you know they could pass 3255 02:17:46,119 --> 02:17:43,459 unnoticed and I think that's a very good 3256 02:17:47,949 --> 02:17:46,129 point you know that that the uniform if 3257 02:17:50,830 --> 02:17:47,959 you like of the black suit does act as 3258 02:17:52,750 --> 02:17:50,840 good camouflage whatever year within the 3259 02:17:54,639 --> 02:17:52,760 last 100 years or so you want it to 3260 02:17:57,040 --> 02:17:54,649 pretty much travel amongst well in that 3261 02:17:59,139 --> 02:17:57,050 also brings into question the whole idea 3262 02:18:02,469 --> 02:17:59,149 of the make and model of the cars that 3263 02:18:05,069 --> 02:18:02,479 they are consistently reported driving I 3264 02:18:07,209 --> 02:18:05,079 think in England what their old Jaguars 3265 02:18:10,119 --> 02:18:07,219 mostly in the United States they're 3266 02:18:12,609 --> 02:18:10,129 either Lincoln's or most I think most 3267 02:18:16,389 --> 02:18:12,619 often Cadillacs but they seem to be 3268 02:18:18,250 --> 02:18:16,399 brand new but you know decades-old model 3269 02:18:20,169 --> 02:18:18,260 that's exactly what you get you know 3270 02:18:22,509 --> 02:18:20,179 that's sort of a paradox in itself 3271 02:18:25,659 --> 02:18:22,519 I mean you often see old cars you know 3272 02:18:27,969 --> 02:18:25,669 people who get otz of old cars who like 3273 02:18:30,099 --> 02:18:27,979 to restore them but I mean that's a 3274 02:18:32,649 --> 02:18:30,109 that's a different thing between seeing 3275 02:18:34,779 --> 02:18:32,659 an old car that looks brand new you know 3276 02:18:37,419 --> 02:18:34,789 that's sort of a real paradox and when 3277 02:18:39,849 --> 02:18:37,429 you find different countries you know 3278 02:18:41,919 --> 02:18:39,859 having their own men in black with their 3279 02:18:43,659 --> 02:18:41,929 own old black cars relevant for that 3280 02:18:45,790 --> 02:18:43,669 particular country you know you have to 3281 02:18:47,949 --> 02:18:45,800 think what is going on you know is this 3282 02:18:49,540 --> 02:18:47,959 really some sort of time-related issue 3283 02:18:50,859 --> 02:18:49,550 and maybe that would have something to 3284 02:18:52,959 --> 02:18:50,869 do with the fact that they're not really 3285 02:18:55,119 --> 02:18:52,969 a custom with our ways you know if 3286 02:18:56,439 --> 02:18:55,129 you're coming back centuries kind of 3287 02:18:58,869 --> 02:18:56,449 like us trying to talk to somebody in 3288 02:19:00,359 --> 02:18:58,879 the 1500s and get away with it by Trump 3289 02:19:04,059 --> 02:19:00,369 pretending to be someone from that era 3290 02:19:09,849 --> 02:19:04,069 so basically they kind of misjudge the 3291 02:19:11,709 --> 02:19:09,859 car they need to bring over yeah it's 3292 02:19:13,689 --> 02:19:11,719 also dependent on what the future's like 3293 02:19:15,189 --> 02:19:13,699 I mean we're assuming in the future 3294 02:19:17,769 --> 02:19:15,199 they've got full knowledge of the past 3295 02:19:19,689 --> 02:19:17,779 well let's say they have some let's say 3296 02:19:21,399 --> 02:19:19,699 there's been some disaster in the future 3297 02:19:23,679 --> 02:19:21,409 and they only have fragmentary knowledge 3298 02:19:25,209 --> 02:19:23,689 of the clothing and the customs and 3299 02:19:27,969 --> 02:19:25,219 everything of the 20th century and 3300 02:19:29,769 --> 02:19:27,979 they're forced to you know go through a 3301 02:19:31,419 --> 02:19:29,779 few old looks that are left and maybe 3302 02:19:32,150 --> 02:19:31,429 there's not much smell elsewhere to look 3303 02:19:34,790 --> 02:19:32,160 at you know 3304 02:19:37,340 --> 02:19:34,800 encyclopedias and try and gain an idea 3305 02:19:39,020 --> 02:19:37,350 of how they should go back and how they 3306 02:19:42,080 --> 02:19:39,030 should dress and how they should talk 3307 02:19:44,870 --> 02:19:42,090 yeah yeah remember listeners listeners 3308 02:19:47,240 --> 02:19:44,880 hold on Nick is postulating you know 3309 02:19:49,190 --> 02:19:47,250 potential theories here don't take this 3310 02:19:51,710 --> 02:19:49,200 as gospel he doesn't believe this 3311 02:19:54,320 --> 02:19:51,720 he's just presenting now it's some some 3312 02:19:57,230 --> 02:19:54,330 critical analysis here which which Nick 3313 02:20:00,131 --> 02:19:57,240 I I totally you know I support and 3314 02:20:04,011 --> 02:20:00,141 respect this particular analytical 3315 02:20:06,170 --> 02:20:04,021 threat here but you know darn well that 3316 02:20:08,930 --> 02:20:06,180 the skeptics are gonna look at this line 3317 02:20:10,460 --> 02:20:08,940 of reasoning and just go nuts we don't 3318 02:20:14,210 --> 02:20:10,470 really have anything to back this up 3319 02:20:16,910 --> 02:20:14,220 except for the you know circumstantial 3320 02:20:20,750 --> 02:20:16,920 evidence that we have from you know the 3321 02:20:23,810 --> 02:20:20,760 last five decades of you know case 3322 02:20:25,881 --> 02:20:23,820 histories so how do you reconcile this 3323 02:20:29,930 --> 02:20:25,891 how do you talk about this particular 3324 02:20:31,460 --> 02:20:29,940 theory or any sort of paranormal and we 3325 02:20:34,070 --> 02:20:31,470 haven't even talked about occult 3326 02:20:37,190 --> 02:20:34,080 theories but any sort of theory that 3327 02:20:41,020 --> 02:20:37,200 flies in the face of a hard-boiled you 3328 02:20:44,091 --> 02:20:41,030 know the bunker skeptic type well I mean 3329 02:20:45,830 --> 02:20:44,101 you know if I write a book and I address 3330 02:20:47,511 --> 02:20:45,840 there is you know the men in black 3331 02:20:49,610 --> 02:20:47,521 aliens government people say I'm 3332 02:20:52,970 --> 02:20:49,620 travelers or calls is it a combination 3333 02:20:55,370 --> 02:20:52,980 of several factors I stress that what 3334 02:20:58,310 --> 02:20:55,380 I'm presenting a fear is because number 3335 02:21:00,200 --> 02:20:58,320 one it will be arrogance to presume we 3336 02:21:01,761 --> 02:21:00,210 know what the men in black are in the 3337 02:21:03,530 --> 02:21:01,771 same way Sarah Graham for somebody used 3338 02:21:06,261 --> 02:21:03,540 to say Bigfoot is a flesh-and-blood 3339 02:21:08,180 --> 02:21:06,271 animal when we have not a single case 3340 02:21:08,690 --> 02:21:08,190 ever of Bigfoot ever being shot or 3341 02:21:11,900 --> 02:21:08,700 killed 3342 02:21:13,580 --> 02:21:11,910 you know the whole surety yeah so I 3343 02:21:16,370 --> 02:21:13,590 think you know it'll be arrogance on the 3344 02:21:18,710 --> 02:21:16,380 one hand and it would also be incorrect 3345 02:21:20,540 --> 02:21:18,720 for me to say you know that we've 3346 02:21:23,000 --> 02:21:20,550 actually sold a many black mystery 3347 02:21:25,790 --> 02:21:23,010 we haven't what we have are absolutely 3348 02:21:27,950 --> 02:21:25,800 convinced is evidenced it's giving these 3349 02:21:29,810 --> 02:21:27,960 evidence that there is a real man in 3350 02:21:33,110 --> 02:21:29,820 black mystery but because it's so 3351 02:21:35,960 --> 02:21:33,120 elusive and weird we're forced to look 3352 02:21:38,750 --> 02:21:35,970 at scenarios and theories but providing 3353 02:21:40,910 --> 02:21:38,760 you tell the reader that you're 3354 02:21:43,131 --> 02:21:40,920 presenting a theory and you're not 3355 02:21:45,930 --> 02:21:43,141 trying to deceive them by passing it off 3356 02:21:47,730 --> 02:21:45,940 as hard facts and evidence 3357 02:21:49,261 --> 02:21:47,740 I think that's that's okay you know as 3358 02:21:50,970 --> 02:21:49,271 long as the reader realizes that what 3359 02:21:52,950 --> 02:21:50,980 I'm doing and as I point out in the book 3360 02:21:55,140 --> 02:21:52,960 these are the theories of people who 3361 02:21:56,761 --> 02:21:55,150 look deeply into the mystery and this is 3362 02:21:59,100 --> 02:21:56,771 what they've concluded as a possibility 3363 02:22:01,350 --> 02:21:59,110 not that they're like hammering on the 3364 02:22:04,381 --> 02:22:01,360 pulpits saying this is a hundred percent 3365 02:22:07,051 --> 02:22:04,391 fact no it's a theory to muse upon that 3366 02:22:08,490 --> 02:22:07,061 might explain a genuine mystery well 3367 02:22:11,150 --> 02:22:08,500 okay and the other thing maybe we'll 3368 02:22:13,801 --> 02:22:11,160 explore in our final segment Nick is 3369 02:22:16,411 --> 02:22:13,811 which of these theories seem to be the 3370 02:22:19,140 --> 02:22:16,421 most possible maybe more than one and 3371 02:22:21,871 --> 02:22:19,150 how do we prove whether there are really 3372 02:22:24,841 --> 02:22:21,881 men and black psychic physical or 3373 02:22:26,850 --> 02:22:24,851 otherwise or do we want to know Nick 3374 02:22:29,551 --> 02:22:26,860 Redfern is the guest the book is the 3375 02:22:31,501 --> 02:22:29,561 real men in black not the fake ones not 3376 02:22:33,600 --> 02:22:31,511 the movie ones with Will Smith and Tommy 3377 02:22:35,791 --> 02:22:33,610 Lee Jones the real ones the co-host is 3378 02:22:46,171 --> 02:22:35,801 Chris O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're 3379 02:22:48,421 --> 02:22:46,181 in the para cast so here's what happened 3380 02:22:51,060 --> 02:22:48,431 I was placing in order online the site 3381 02:22:53,220 --> 02:22:51,070 went down it just stopped responding it 3382 02:22:54,480 --> 02:22:53,230 took hours before it returned but I'd 3383 02:22:56,190 --> 02:22:54,490 already placed the order with another 3384 02:22:58,110 --> 02:22:56,200 company if your site goes down 3385 02:22:59,940 --> 02:22:58,120 you could lose business and if you have 3386 02:23:02,011 --> 02:22:59,950 a business or personal site you'll want 3387 02:23:05,131 --> 02:23:02,021 to know it's easy to run and it will 3388 02:23:08,131 --> 02:23:05,141 stay online at iWeb your site is hosted 3389 02:23:09,600 --> 02:23:08,141 on one of the most reliable networks in 3390 02:23:13,591 --> 02:23:09,610 the world check it out 3391 02:23:15,421 --> 02:23:13,601 I web comm that's iWeb comm for 58 years 3392 02:23:17,341 --> 02:23:15,431 fate has provided true reports of a 3393 02:23:19,440 --> 02:23:17,351 strange and unknown fate brings you the 3394 02:23:21,091 --> 02:23:19,450 latest in all aspects of the paranormal 3395 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02:23:54,260 --> 02:23:52,289 high blood pressure high blood sugar and 3410 02:23:54,679 --> 02:23:54,270 poor vision and I really wasn't sleeping 3411 02:23:56,899 --> 02:23:54,689 well 3412 02:23:58,189 --> 02:23:56,909 I was a mess pretty much don reports 3413 02:24:00,409 --> 02:23:58,199 dramatic improvements with heart and 3414 02:24:02,239 --> 02:24:00,419 body extracts I started taking a heart 3415 02:24:04,159 --> 02:24:02,249 and body extract and from within a few 3416 02:24:06,679 --> 02:24:04,169 days I started sleeping a lot better 3417 02:24:09,019 --> 02:24:06,689 my blood pressure normalized my blood 3418 02:24:10,879 --> 02:24:09,029 sugar normalized and my sleep really did 3419 02:24:12,499 --> 02:24:10,889 improve experience these benefits and 3420 02:24:13,789 --> 02:24:12,509 more when your body gets what it needs 3421 02:24:17,089 --> 02:24:13,799 with the assistance of heart and body 3422 02:24:20,359 --> 02:24:17,099 extract order at HB extract calm or call 3423 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02:25:33,089 you will receive a free copy of our 3451 02:25:37,969 --> 02:25:35,129 Constitution a newsletter and bonus 3452 02:25:40,549 --> 02:25:37,979 items Aaron aqua calm purify your life 3453 02:25:42,559 --> 02:25:40,559 today we all know that berkey water 3454 02:25:44,779 --> 02:25:42,569 purification systems are the most 3455 02:25:46,819 --> 02:25:44,789 trusted name in water filtration as an 3456 02:25:48,529 --> 02:25:46,829 authorized Berkey dealer for over 6 3457 02:25:51,319 --> 02:25:48,539 years in serving thousands of satisfied 3458 02:25:53,059 --> 02:25:51,329 customers the Berkey guy offers amazing 3459 02:25:55,279 --> 02:25:53,069 specials for berkey water filtration 3460 02:25:56,959 --> 02:25:55,289 systems the Berkey light systems include 3461 02:25:58,789 --> 02:25:56,969 a set of self-sterilizing and re 3462 02:26:00,679 --> 02:25:58,799 cleanable black purification elements 3463 02:26:02,240 --> 02:26:00,689 that purify water by removing chlorine 3464 02:26:04,190 --> 02:26:02,250 pathogenic bacteria 3465 02:26:06,530 --> 02:26:04,200 cysts and parasites to non-detectable 3466 02:26:08,570 --> 02:26:06,540 levels and remove harmful chemicals such 3467 02:26:10,430 --> 02:26:08,580 as herbicides and pesticides order the 3468 02:26:12,290 --> 02:26:10,440 Berkey light system today complete with 3469 02:26:13,910 --> 02:26:12,300 two black per key elements for only two 3470 02:26:15,800 --> 02:26:13,920 hundred and thirty one dollars and the 3471 02:26:17,510 --> 02:26:15,810 burka guy will ship your order free of 3472 02:26:19,640 --> 02:26:17,520 charge with the purchase of a perky 3473 02:26:21,740 --> 02:26:19,650 light the burka guy is also offering is 3474 02:26:24,590 --> 02:26:21,750 set of fluoride and arsenic filters for 3475 02:26:25,670 --> 02:26:24,600 only $39.99 that's over 30 percent off 3476 02:26:27,500 --> 02:26:25,680 the retail price 3477 02:26:29,900 --> 02:26:27,510 call the burqa guy at one eight seven 3478 02:26:32,060 --> 02:26:29,910 seven eight eight six three six five 3479 02:26:34,820 --> 02:26:32,070 three that's one eight seven seven eight 3480 02:26:37,430 --> 02:26:34,830 eight six three six five three or order 3481 02:26:41,270 --> 02:26:37,440 online at Gober Keep Calm that's Gober 3482 02:26:43,400 --> 02:26:41,280 Keep Calm today the Jeezy and Radio 3483 02:26:48,080 --> 02:26:43,410 Network providing the world with 3484 02:27:00,219 --> 02:26:48,090 hard-hitting talk radio G C and grey 3485 02:27:13,040 --> 02:27:10,099 because mmm that starts like a Renfield 3486 02:27:16,040 --> 02:27:13,050 laughs remember the original little 3487 02:27:19,069 --> 02:27:16,050 feeling the original Dracula 1931 played 3488 02:27:21,290 --> 02:27:19,079 by Dwight Frye he had this weird laugh 3489 02:27:24,920 --> 02:27:21,300 when he was gonna tell everybody how he 3490 02:27:26,479 --> 02:27:24,930 eats insects and such gets gooey don't 3491 02:27:28,490 --> 02:27:26,489 forget if you have a comment or a 3492 02:27:30,349 --> 02:27:28,500 question about the power cast write us 3493 02:27:32,990 --> 02:27:30,359 news at the power cast com 3494 02:27:34,939 --> 02:27:33,000 that's news at the Peres cast comm we're 3495 02:27:36,830 --> 02:27:34,949 talking to Nick Redfern the subject is 3496 02:27:38,689 --> 02:27:36,840 not gooey it's the real men in black I'm 3497 02:27:40,279 --> 02:27:38,699 gene Steinberg the co-host is Chris 3498 02:27:43,130 --> 02:27:40,289 O'Brien this is our final segment 3499 02:27:45,170 --> 02:27:43,140 so we've voiced all sorts of theories 3500 02:27:47,450 --> 02:27:45,180 there are others to explore we have 3501 02:27:49,429 --> 02:27:47,460 questions we haven't even answered yet 3502 02:27:52,609 --> 02:27:49,439 from our guests but the long and short 3503 02:27:54,439 --> 02:27:52,619 of it is how do we go about validating 3504 02:27:57,200 --> 02:27:54,449 any of these theories can it be done 3505 02:27:58,700 --> 02:27:57,210 well you know I think the extent to 3506 02:28:01,069 --> 02:27:58,710 which we can validate the theory is 3507 02:28:02,899 --> 02:28:01,079 dependent upon the extent to which the 3508 02:28:04,460 --> 02:28:02,909 theories weird or not you know as I 3509 02:28:07,099 --> 02:28:04,470 pointed out with the British case 3510 02:28:10,429 --> 02:28:07,109 involving an Lehmann there's no doubt in 3511 02:28:11,960 --> 02:28:10,439 my mind some of the MIB can be traced 3512 02:28:14,479 --> 02:28:11,970 back to government people and actually 3513 02:28:15,500 --> 02:28:14,489 think sometimes the government people to 3514 02:28:17,389 --> 02:28:15,510 cover their tracks 3515 02:28:18,710 --> 02:28:17,399 - almost disguise themselves or 3516 02:28:20,599 --> 02:28:18,720 literally disguise themselves as a 3517 02:28:22,819 --> 02:28:20,609 weirdo man in black because then they 3518 02:28:26,599 --> 02:28:22,829 have a greater chance of not being found 3519 02:28:29,000 --> 02:28:26,609 out so I think the government angle is 3520 02:28:31,040 --> 02:28:29,010 probably the easiest to demonstrate as 3521 02:28:34,399 --> 02:28:31,050 having some validity to it and I think 3522 02:28:36,679 --> 02:28:34,409 the whole pimply teenager angle also has 3523 02:28:38,630 --> 02:28:36,689 an aspect to it but I think those are 3524 02:28:40,760 --> 02:28:38,640 sort of minor aspects when it comes to 3525 02:28:43,250 --> 02:28:40,770 the larger mystery of the waiter man in 3526 02:28:45,559 --> 02:28:43,260 black now I'll be the first to admit how 3527 02:28:47,840 --> 02:28:45,569 do you prove it so poor exists or how do 3528 02:28:50,719 --> 02:28:47,850 you prove that you know there are time 3529 02:28:53,090 --> 02:28:50,729 travelers covertly moving amongst us you 3530 02:28:55,460 --> 02:28:53,100 know and manipulating things without our 3531 02:28:58,250 --> 02:28:55,470 knowledge the answer to that question is 3532 02:29:00,649 --> 02:28:58,260 it's incredibly difficult to do so you 3533 02:29:02,479 --> 02:29:00,659 know and it may be near impossible to do 3534 02:29:04,790 --> 02:29:02,489 so you know I'm a realist I'm not going 3535 02:29:06,529 --> 02:29:04,800 to tell people like some people will all 3536 02:29:08,630 --> 02:29:06,539 the answers coming it's just around the 3537 02:29:10,190 --> 02:29:08,640 corner you know I can't do that because 3538 02:29:12,831 --> 02:29:10,200 I can 3539 02:29:15,230 --> 02:29:12,841 so there's no disclosure movement that's 3540 02:29:17,661 --> 02:29:15,240 trying to expose the true identity of 3541 02:29:19,730 --> 02:29:17,671 the men in black well I'd like to be 3542 02:29:22,610 --> 02:29:19,740 able to do that but I'm honest enough to 3543 02:29:25,011 --> 02:29:22,620 admit but I think it's so weird that 3544 02:29:26,600 --> 02:29:25,021 we're still struggling for that we're 3545 02:29:28,551 --> 02:29:26,610 not struggling for answers to the fact 3546 02:29:30,470 --> 02:29:28,561 that there's definitely a weird mystery 3547 02:29:32,600 --> 02:29:30,480 we're struggling for answers as to what 3548 02:29:35,150 --> 02:29:32,610 lies at the heart of that mystery and 3549 02:29:36,621 --> 02:29:35,160 I'll be the first to admit there getting 3550 02:29:39,801 --> 02:29:36,631 those answers when we're dealing with 3551 02:29:42,320 --> 02:29:39,811 definitively off-the-wall theories and 3552 02:29:45,621 --> 02:29:42,330 outlandish theories and fringe science 3553 02:29:47,871 --> 02:29:45,631 theories it's incredibly hard to do so I 3554 02:29:50,180 --> 02:29:47,881 guess the real possibility possible 3555 02:29:52,461 --> 02:29:50,190 potential at least would be you know to 3556 02:29:54,860 --> 02:29:52,471 catch a man in black in action so to 3557 02:29:56,690 --> 02:29:54,870 speak you know but even when people like 3558 02:29:58,820 --> 02:29:56,700 kale we're told you know the man in 3559 02:30:00,560 --> 02:29:58,830 blacks here right now get here right now 3560 02:30:02,690 --> 02:30:00,570 get it get over here they would always 3561 02:30:04,701 --> 02:30:02,700 arrive too late or you know the person 3562 02:30:06,530 --> 02:30:04,711 had vanished again that's like a 3563 02:30:08,631 --> 02:30:06,540 trickster animal you know which sort of 3564 02:30:10,220 --> 02:30:08,641 dangling the Apple in front of us and 3565 02:30:12,860 --> 02:30:10,230 then we where we go to take a bye from 3566 02:30:14,961 --> 02:30:12,870 it it's gone too soon so I'm not 3567 02:30:16,761 --> 02:30:14,971 entirely sure when we're dealing with 3568 02:30:18,291 --> 02:30:16,771 something that is clearly nothing to do 3569 02:30:20,871 --> 02:30:18,301 with the government and has more of an 3570 02:30:23,690 --> 02:30:20,881 ethereal basis to it how we actually get 3571 02:30:25,701 --> 02:30:23,700 proof it is extremely difficult 3572 02:30:29,301 --> 02:30:25,711 well Nick do you think that we're seeing 3573 02:30:31,730 --> 02:30:29,311 a possible morphing of a men and black 3574 02:30:33,440 --> 02:30:31,740 scenario into what is becoming 3575 02:30:36,470 --> 02:30:33,450 increasingly more popular and that is 3576 02:30:38,570 --> 02:30:36,480 the the black-eyed children this is an 3577 02:30:41,211 --> 02:30:38,580 angle that you didn't address in your 3578 02:30:43,551 --> 02:30:41,221 book and I'd like to quickly get your 3579 02:30:46,190 --> 02:30:43,561 thoughts on how you think the dark or 3580 02:30:48,261 --> 02:30:46,200 black-eyed children may possibly be 3581 02:30:51,560 --> 02:30:48,271 somehow associated with the men and 3582 02:30:54,470 --> 02:30:51,570 black phenomena well you know the 3583 02:30:56,751 --> 02:30:54,480 black-eyed kids or hybrid children and 3584 02:30:58,190 --> 02:30:56,761 things like this you know the idea could 3585 02:30:59,751 --> 02:30:58,200 there be a connection I mean I think the 3586 02:31:01,730 --> 02:30:59,761 one thing that's interesting about the 3587 02:31:03,381 --> 02:31:01,740 man in black if they're alien if they're 3588 02:31:06,051 --> 02:31:03,391 pairing or whatever they are they 3589 02:31:08,720 --> 02:31:06,061 actually do look quite like us you know 3590 02:31:10,820 --> 02:31:08,730 there are some subtle differences color 3591 02:31:13,400 --> 02:31:10,830 of the skin the they look very skinny 3592 02:31:15,470 --> 02:31:13,410 pale pasty they sometimes have as people 3593 02:31:19,761 --> 02:31:15,480 described them and actually said like 3594 02:31:22,251 --> 02:31:19,771 thyroid eyes he's an Asian as well but 3595 02:31:22,849 --> 02:31:22,261 in some cases you know the if they put 3596 02:31:24,199 --> 02:31:22,859 the hats 3597 02:31:27,319 --> 02:31:24,209 the turn of colors in the sunglasses 3598 02:31:29,420 --> 02:31:27,329 they can pass amongst us without too 3599 02:31:32,420 --> 02:31:29,430 much notice being given to them so you 3600 02:31:33,979 --> 02:31:32,430 know when you talk about kind of human 3601 02:31:36,500 --> 02:31:33,989 beings are slightly different like the 3602 02:31:38,630 --> 02:31:36,510 black-eyed kids or hybrids in alien 3603 02:31:41,359 --> 02:31:38,640 abduction stories you know you have to 3604 02:31:44,029 --> 02:31:41,369 wonder if some people speculated ah the 3605 02:31:46,040 --> 02:31:44,039 MIB actually some sort of hybrid are 3606 02:31:48,559 --> 02:31:46,050 they part of some sort of hybrid mission 3607 02:31:51,710 --> 02:31:48,569 is the end result the black-eyed kids 3608 02:31:53,899 --> 02:31:51,720 you know I think these are all relevant 3609 02:31:57,619 --> 02:31:53,909 areas that you know open up another 3610 02:31:59,869 --> 02:31:57,629 avenue for MIB research and and I think 3611 02:32:01,779 --> 02:31:59,879 the important thing is I think the human 3612 02:32:04,219 --> 02:32:01,789 mind you know often wants to pigeonhole 3613 02:32:05,719 --> 02:32:04,229 phenomena into one thing you know the 3614 02:32:07,819 --> 02:32:05,729 Loch Ness monster zap lettuce or 3615 02:32:09,559 --> 02:32:07,829 Bigfoot's a giant a it could be with a 3616 02:32:12,260 --> 02:32:09,569 man in black and I'm actually sure this 3617 02:32:14,540 --> 02:32:12,270 there probably is far more than just one 3618 02:32:16,399 --> 02:32:14,550 or two even category of men in black 3619 02:32:20,210 --> 02:32:16,409 yeah so there's no one-size-fits-all 3620 02:32:21,800 --> 02:32:20,220 type scenario no I think if you put me 3621 02:32:23,719 --> 02:32:21,810 on the spot I would say there are 3622 02:32:24,170 --> 02:32:23,729 government investigators who are men in 3623 02:32:26,059 --> 02:32:24,180 black 3624 02:32:28,219 --> 02:32:26,069 there are also government investigators 3625 02:32:29,960 --> 02:32:28,229 who disguise themselves as the weird 3626 02:32:31,729 --> 02:32:29,970 event in black then there are the 3627 02:32:33,739 --> 02:32:31,739 weirder men in black then there's a 3628 02:32:35,659 --> 02:32:33,749 pimply teenagers then there are the 3629 02:32:37,580 --> 02:32:35,669 Walter Mitty's you know then there could 3630 02:32:40,460 --> 02:32:37,590 be the occult ones there could be time 3631 02:32:43,099 --> 02:32:40,470 travelers maybe somebody's realized that 3632 02:32:45,260 --> 02:32:43,109 the MIB motif is a very good one for a 3633 02:32:48,380 --> 02:32:45,270 whole range of different operations it's 3634 02:32:50,210 --> 02:32:48,390 an umbrella sort of tag what about the 3635 02:32:53,000 --> 02:32:50,220 occult angle we haven't really discussed 3636 02:32:55,069 --> 02:32:53,010 that much quickly once you give us a 3637 02:32:58,040 --> 02:32:55,079 quick thumbnail sketch of the occult 3638 02:33:00,830 --> 02:32:58,050 theory yeah well a lot of people who had 3639 02:33:02,659 --> 02:33:00,840 MIB experiences afterwards in the 3640 02:33:05,719 --> 02:33:02,669 immediate aftermath have had very weird 3641 02:33:07,609 --> 02:33:05,729 runs of bad luck ill-health even 3642 02:33:09,649 --> 02:33:07,619 poltergeist activity in their homes 3643 02:33:11,809 --> 02:33:09,659 positive ghost activity is actually a 3644 02:33:14,809 --> 02:33:11,819 central part of a lot of men in black 3645 02:33:16,429 --> 02:33:14,819 experiences albert bandura's I talk 3646 02:33:19,699 --> 02:33:16,439 about a number of people in the book who 3647 02:33:21,949 --> 02:33:19,709 had those experiences a lot of MIB 3648 02:33:24,319 --> 02:33:21,959 witnesses who were users of Ouija boards 3649 02:33:26,269 --> 02:33:24,329 and you know you have to wonder is there 3650 02:33:27,920 --> 02:33:26,279 a connection and people like Rob O'Shea 3651 02:33:29,750 --> 02:33:27,930 or I interviewed for the book you know 3652 02:33:31,489 --> 02:33:29,760 actually you know said words to the 3653 02:33:33,409 --> 02:33:31,499 effect of yeah you know you start 3654 02:33:35,960 --> 02:33:33,419 delving into wager boards and the occult 3655 02:33:36,590 --> 02:33:35,970 and you risk opening doorways to some of 3656 02:33:39,080 --> 02:33:36,600 these negative 3657 02:33:40,399 --> 02:33:39,090 entities and Rey believes you know again 3658 02:33:42,530 --> 02:33:40,409 when you go looking for these things 3659 02:33:45,800 --> 02:33:42,540 they realize and they get their grips 3660 02:33:48,830 --> 02:33:45,810 into you and maybe they even manifest in 3661 02:33:50,599 --> 02:33:48,840 a fashion you know that it sort of gets 3662 02:33:52,580 --> 02:33:50,609 its grips into even more by that I mean 3663 02:33:54,950 --> 02:33:52,590 that Rey believes that the really 3664 02:33:57,889 --> 02:33:54,960 unknown aspects of the UFO phenomenon 3665 02:34:01,010 --> 02:33:57,899 are literally demonic and he fiddles it 3666 02:34:03,530 --> 02:34:01,020 possibly this phenomena cloaks itself in 3667 02:34:06,320 --> 02:34:03,540 the motifs of ufology like the men in 3668 02:34:08,840 --> 02:34:06,330 black and the greys as a means to entice 3669 02:34:10,790 --> 02:34:08,850 us further into UFO research when he 3670 02:34:13,429 --> 02:34:10,800 actually believes what we're doing he's 3671 02:34:15,679 --> 02:34:13,439 opening ourselves more up to demons and 3672 02:34:17,599 --> 02:34:15,689 then the mlin IP are a sort of a 3673 02:34:20,769 --> 02:34:17,609 manifestation of this demonic 3674 02:34:23,389 --> 02:34:20,779 intelligence that is used in the MIB 3675 02:34:26,030 --> 02:34:23,399 imagery to pull us in because it's like 3676 02:34:26,809 --> 02:34:26,040 exciting intriguing imagery be careful 3677 02:34:29,240 --> 02:34:26,819 what you wish for 3678 02:34:31,729 --> 02:34:29,250 well john cale of course tried to bring 3679 02:34:34,160 --> 02:34:31,739 us more towards his feeling of a demonic 3680 02:34:35,899 --> 02:34:34,170 aspect in his latter years oh yeah I 3681 02:34:38,830 --> 02:34:35,909 mean you know cael's work he's sort of 3682 02:34:42,590 --> 02:34:38,840 steeped in vehicles and demonstrating 3683 02:34:45,139 --> 02:34:42,600 similarities between occult activity you 3684 02:34:47,300 --> 02:34:45,149 know UFO activity for example you look 3685 02:34:49,340 --> 02:34:47,310 at alien abductions you know somebody 3686 02:34:51,920 --> 02:34:49,350 wakes up in the morning after an 3687 02:34:55,609 --> 02:34:51,930 encounter with an alien you know they're 3688 02:34:57,439 --> 02:34:55,619 weird marks on their skin etc you know 3689 02:35:00,530 --> 02:34:57,449 they feel exhausted you can find 3690 02:35:03,290 --> 02:35:00,540 countless accounts in religious texts 3691 02:35:05,719 --> 02:35:03,300 about people you know meeting demons and 3692 02:35:07,790 --> 02:35:05,729 the demon you know leaves its imprint on 3693 02:35:09,950 --> 02:35:07,800 the person's body they have strange 3694 02:35:11,960 --> 02:35:09,960 activity in the house there's not that 3695 02:35:14,269 --> 02:35:11,970 much difference you know you can find a 3696 02:35:16,070 --> 02:35:14,279 lot of similarities and crossovers and I 3697 02:35:16,700 --> 02:35:16,080 think Kayle where the people agree with 3698 02:35:19,189 --> 02:35:16,710 him or not 3699 02:35:22,540 --> 02:35:19,199 was an important person because he 3700 02:35:25,340 --> 02:35:22,550 demonstrated the clear and undeniable 3701 02:35:28,309 --> 02:35:25,350 crossovers and parallels between things 3702 02:35:31,099 --> 02:35:28,319 like UFO encounters ferry encounters 3703 02:35:33,679 --> 02:35:31,109 goblins trickster like phenomena where 3704 02:35:36,380 --> 02:35:33,689 there's clearly some sort of underlying 3705 02:35:39,229 --> 02:35:36,390 in my view these underlying originating 3706 02:35:41,750 --> 02:35:39,239 source which is just pummeling us with 3707 02:35:45,950 --> 02:35:41,760 different imagery scenarios creatures 3708 02:35:48,139 --> 02:35:45,960 beasts aliens MIB in the whole the whole 3709 02:35:50,330 --> 02:35:48,149 trickster ish element we haven't even 3710 02:35:52,910 --> 02:35:50,340 had time to discuss which I 3711 02:35:55,490 --> 02:35:52,920 I personally feel is really important in 3712 02:35:58,310 --> 02:35:55,500 this conversation and Nick we're gonna 3713 02:36:01,040 --> 02:35:58,320 have to have you back you know you're 3714 02:36:03,080 --> 02:36:01,050 one of our favorite people here at the 3715 02:36:06,590 --> 02:36:03,090 para cast your you're a guest co-host 3716 02:36:08,810 --> 02:36:06,600 and and I think looking at the trickster 3717 02:36:11,090 --> 02:36:08,820 element in this whole thing is almost 3718 02:36:13,550 --> 02:36:11,100 worthy of a whole show in and of itself 3719 02:36:15,710 --> 02:36:13,560 and I want to thank you so much for all 3720 02:36:19,090 --> 02:36:15,720 the work that you do you're one of my 3721 02:36:21,260 --> 02:36:19,100 favorite most you know but I admire you 3722 02:36:23,929 --> 02:36:21,270 rosemary guiley other people that 3723 02:36:25,670 --> 02:36:23,939 publish and really just you have four or 3724 02:36:27,830 --> 02:36:25,680 five different websites that you 3725 02:36:30,500 --> 02:36:27,840 you're constantly adding material on 3726 02:36:34,370 --> 02:36:30,510 your I think a bright light in this 3727 02:36:37,760 --> 02:36:34,380 field you are the guy and you know 3728 02:36:39,320 --> 02:36:37,770 anything we can do to help you I'll tell 3729 02:36:41,450 --> 02:36:39,330 you what the book is called the real men 3730 02:36:44,929 --> 02:36:41,460 in black Nick Redfern where do we find 3731 02:36:47,780 --> 02:36:44,939 more of your stuff Nick Redfern calm or 3732 02:36:50,750 --> 02:36:47,790 Nick Redferns books blog spot.com 3733 02:36:53,810 --> 02:36:50,760 okay and Chris has a site our strange 3734 02:36:57,110 --> 02:36:53,820 planet.com our strange planet currently 3735 02:36:59,810 --> 02:36:57,120 being revised revitalize etc from Chris 3736 02:37:01,490 --> 02:36:59,820 and myself special thank you to Nick 3737 02:37:08,560 --> 02:37:01,500 Redfern thanks for joining us this week 3738 02:37:13,551 --> 02:37:11,180 this is a calculated presentation of 3739 02:37:16,520 --> 02:37:13,561 making the impossible incorporated tune